The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and the first question is tabled in the name of Jeremy Miles.

<p>Creative Wales</p>

Jeremy Miles AC: 1. Will the Minister provide an update in relation to Creative Wales? OAQ(5)0035(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. Thank you. Work is under way to set up Creative Wales, a body that will back home-grown talent in the creative industries. The success story of the creative industries in Wales is one we want to build on, and we are establishing this new body to drive further growth in the sector.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. The creative industries is one of the fastest-growing sectors in the Welsh economy and has seen a massive increase in employment. Will he indicate whether, and, if so, how, Brexit is likely to affect the Welsh Government’s ongoing commitment to its media investment fund and other production incentives? And will he undertake to work with the UK Government to assess the effect of Brexit on the film and television co-production treaties that allow a producer in one European Union country to access production incentives in other EU countries, and put in place arrangements to prevent the loss of that opportunity to the Welsh economy?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, indeed I will. And the Welsh Government’s ongoing commitment to the media investment fund, and to Pinewood, I’m pleased to say, will not be affected by the EU referendum result. Now, my Creative Europe team is already in discussions with the UK Government and major production houses to maximise the opportunities and to minimise the challenges that leaving the EU creates. Wales has targeted American production houses, and we need to minimise the impact of leaving the EU on the flow of international talent. But also, we need to take advantage of the strong value of the dollar against the pound.

Suzy Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, the arts and creative industries can act as an important driver for thinking differently about solving problems in our communities, and the Art Across the City LOCWS programme in Swansea is a perfect example for regeneration. How does Creative Wales help meet the objectives defined in the Kay Andrews report, especially bringing creatives, public bodies, and communities, closer together to tackle a range of socioeconomic problems? And could it be used to pilot Arts on Prescription, for example?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, absolutely, and the Welsh Labour manifesto did indeed contain a pledge to do exactly that, through the form of a social prescription, alongside the establishment of a Wales well-being bond that seeks to direct funding to those activities that prevent ill-health and help treat people who are suffering particularly mild forms of mental illness. Now, it’s my belief, with regard to the pioneer projects and the work that the Member references that is being recommended by Baroness Kay Andrews, in the form of the pioneer area of work and the Fusion project, that there is a natural link between the creative industries and the arts not just here in Wales, but right across Europe we have good examples of how they interlink and weave together. And I believe that they fully benefit, jointly, from the approach to their development and to the creation of Creative Wales.Now, my current remit letter to the Arts Council of Wales fully recognises the symbiotic relationship that the arts and the creative industries have, and it commits the Welsh Government and the Arts Council of Wales to develop this area together. I’m also pleased to be able to inform the Member that Dr Phil George, the new Chair of the Arts Council of Wales, has a background in both the creative industries and the arts, and is well positioned, I believe, to drive this agenda forward alongside Welsh Government and the new body, Creative Wales.

<p>Tourism Projects in Mid Wales</p>

Russell George AC: 2. Will the Minister outline the financial support available for tourism projects in mid Wales? OAQ(5)0027(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. We operate three main schemes to support tourism projects: the tourism investment support scheme, otherwise known as TIS; the regional tourism engagement fund; and a tourism product innovation fund. These are pan-Wales schemes. The Welsh Government also looks to access various EU funding streams available to support tourism in Wales.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. The heritage hub for mid Wales project is an exciting new project in Newtown, which aims to forge a brand identity for mid Wales, through the exploitation of digital technology and the promotion of our culture, including paying tribute to the iconic social reformer, Robert Owen, famous to Newtown. Now, they’ve also promoted the project with Visit Wales, as part of the 2017 marketing campaign, the Year of Legends. Will you join me in lending your support for this project, and outline what assistance the Welsh Government can specifically provide to obtaining funding for this project in Newtown?

Ken Skates AC: This is an excellent project that the Member highlights, and it fits well with the project that the Welsh Government is undertaking through Visit Wales to promote our heritage. The Member will be aware of the Cadw sites that were illuminated in red during the course of the European tournament recently, and we are keen to ensure that heritage is at the centre of our offer for visitors to Wales. In terms of the funding that may be available, it’s entirely possible, given the strong link to the Year of Legends—and I wouldn’t want to prejudge any application—that they’d wish to look to apply during next year’s round of funding, during 2017, for a grant through the tourism product innovation fund. I’ve been quite clear to applicants that I’d like to see far more innovation and creativity come forward in the form of applications for that type of funding, and I’d very much welcome one from the organisation the Member raises.

Dawn Bowden AC: I actually think the Cabinet Secretary has just answered my question as well, but let me just go through it anyway. You’ll recall that I’ve previously raised the issue in this Chamber about the tourism industry in Wales, and our social and historical heritage—the industrial heritage particularly in constituencies like mine. And, so, I was pleased to learn about the Welsh Government’s announcement last year that the tourism marketing campaign for 2017 would celebrate the Year of Legends. As part of that campaign, tourism providers are being encouraged to create or to theme products or experiences, as I understand it, using Welsh legends as the inspiration, including our historic heroes. In my view, one such hero is Dic Penderyn, one of the leaders of the Merthyr rising in 1831, and the funding made available to support the Year of Legends initiative could potentially support a campaign in my constituency to have something like a statue erected to commemorate Dic Penderyn. Now, the Welsh Government’s statement in April refers to funding being made available through the regional tourism engagement fund and the tourism product innovation fund, but the websites are now showing that the funds for applications are now closed for 2016-17. So, can the Minister confirm that funds will still be available to support initiatives under the Year of Legends marketing campaign and advise on what the source of that funding might be?

Ken Skates AC: Yes. As I mentioned to Suzy Davies, there will be available funds for the next financial year, which will be available during 2017. The project that the Member raises today sounds a very innovative one; it’s something that I’m sure the destination manager—. I would advise the organisation that’s behind the initiative to actually make contact with their destination manager, because they’ll be able to give advice on how to promote the project right across the region.In addition to the tourism product innovation fund, the Member highlighted the availability of resources through the regional tourism engagement fund, and, again, that’s something that the destination manager in the region will be able to advise on. And, there is also the possibility perhaps of liaising with the Arts Council of Wales to see whether that specific project might attract public art finance from the arts council. Finally, going forward, we had a pledge in our manifesto to create a challenge fund for community arts and community sport, and I imagine this sort of project, where you’re able to generate interest and generate crowd-funded resources, would be suitable for match funding through the challenge fund.

Simon Thomas AC: To return to Newtown, another important part of the heritage of Newtown in Powys is the Montgomery canal. The First Minister said yesterday that canals are seen by the Welsh Government as part of our tourism offer, and, as there is a proposal by the people of Newtown to restore the old canal that runs through the town and which is part of the industrial history and heritage of Wales, of course, what assistance can the Welsh Government offer, given that this scheme was originally going to approach European funds?

Ken Skates AC: The Member’s absolutely right; canals are vital for the tourism industry in Wales. I know that because the busiest of all canals in Britain runs through my own constituency—the Llangollen canal. And they are particularly attractive to foreign visitors, and we now have a record number of foreign visitors coming to Wales, spending a record amount here. I’d like that to continue. The point that the Member raises is an important one for mid Wales, and it’s one that Russell George has raised in the past. I met with the organisation that is looking to restore the canal. We’ve recently received details of the project, and I have asked officials to arrange a meeting with the local town council to establish the latest position with regard to the promotion and restoration of the canals in mid Wales.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

We now move to the party spokespeople and, first this week, I ask the Conservative spokesperson, Russell George, to ask his question.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I’d like to question you on the Welsh Government’s support for small businesses and, in doing so, I also declare that I’m an owner of a small business myself. Small businesses in England will benefit from a number of key priority changes that the UK Government has brought forward in its 2016 budget in order to assists small and medium-sized enterprises. This includes small business rate relief for businesses with a rateable value of between £6,000 and £15,000. Numerous businesses have contacted me in recent weeks concerned that the schemes that were available in the past few years have not been available in this financial year. Can I ask you, therefore, whether you will commit to replicating the UK Government’s policy to support small businesses in Wales and outline a timetable for reform to business rate relief?

Ken Skates AC: This is an issue that I am working on principally with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, who is responsible for local taxes. It’s important that we continue to support indigenous businesses in every way that we possibly can, including through tax cuts. My party had a pledge to ensure that there are tax cuts for small businesses in Wales; we intend to carry through that pledge.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that. You have rightly outlined your manifesto commitment to cut taxes for small businesses. Could I ask you how you would do that for small businesses that currently don’t pay business rates? How are you going to cut taxes for those small businesses?

Ken Skates AC: If they’re not paying taxes at the moment, they wouldn’t benefit from a tax cut, so it’s only for those businesses that are currently paying tax—they will experience that tax cut. Those that don’t pay tax at the moment will continue not to pay tax.

Russell George AC: My question was in regard to the fact that there are a number of taxes that small businesses would pay and, clearly, as it was a Welsh Labour manifesto commitment to cut tax for small businesses, if they’re not paying business rates, then obviously that manifesto commitment will cut taxes in other areas. The Development Bank for Wales is also designed to address the growing bank funding gap between SMEs looking to expand. I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to provide some details on the next steps for the development bank. There is some concern that interest rates will be punitive if the bank is to be self-financing. So, perhaps you could outline how the bank will work in practice and how it will be different from Finance Wales—whether it will just provide tailored business support as well as a source of funding.

Ken Skates AC: Yes, it will provide that tailored business support that the Member talks about in addition to funding. Our preferred option is a hybrid model that seeks to lever in additional investment and to work in partnership with other stakeholders. I am pleased to be able to tell the Member today that Finance Wales is committed to submitting a fully costed business plan for the development bank to consider prior to recess. I expect that plan to be with me by the end of this week.

The UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Can I rather belatedly congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment to what is a very comprehensive portfolio? I’m sure he’ll prove as competent in handling it as he has in his previous roles. I look forward to working in a constructive manner with him as UKIP’s member on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee. The matter that gives rise to my question is one that I’m sure has been raised a number of times, but I make no apologies for raising it again and will continue to do so until the matter has some kind of resolution. I refer to the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line, which still has no link into Newport. Can the Cabinet Secretary update us on the latest situation with regard to this very important part of the south-east Wales infrastructure?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his very kind, genuine and sincere comments and offer my congratulations to him on his election and his appointment as a spokesperson? I don’t have the details to hand today on that particular piece of infrastructure, but I would be pleased to be able to submit information to all Members in the form of a written statement.

David J Rowlands AC: Fine. As you haven’t been able to give me an answer on that, can I say that it slightly alters what I’m going to say now? But there is a suggested alternative to the difficulty of constructing a turn-back facility at Newport, which appears to be a major stumbling block, which under the present circumstances will require extensive structural changes. The alternative compromise is that the train would carry on to Abergavenny, where construction of this turn-back facility would be far more affordable. This would only require some signalling alterations and, of course, timetable changes. Could the Cabinet Secretary inform us as to whether this strategy has been fully explored?

Ken Skates AC: Well, I’m pragmatic in terms of how we solve transport problems in our communities. Perhaps it would be beneficial if I was to visit the site with the Member to discuss and explore the options that he presents today. If it emerges that that is a more cost-effective solution and one that can be delivered rapidly, then I would happily consider it.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: The Cabinet Secretary has already said that securing inward investment and higher exports for Wales is going to be more challenging, at least in the short term, as a result of the referendum result. He’s referred to the need for confidence-building measures and has announced a new export initiative. Now, that export initiative, as I understand it, is going to be delivered essentially by the civil service, and I have to say that doesn’t build my confidence. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary if he can name a single European country, apart from Wales, that doesn’t have its own dedicated trade and investment body?

Ken Skates AC: Well, I would have thought the Member would appreciate that sometimes having Welsh solutions for Welsh problems is something that the people of Wales would be proud of. The fact of the matter is that, up to Brexit, exports from Wales are something that we should be proud of. We’ve been able to assist numerous companies in breaking through into new markets. We are determined to ensure that that continues. We’ll be investing more heavily in accessing new markets and in introducing Welsh businesses to the possibility of exporting right across the globe. We are going to be targeting specific areas where we also have contacts abroad, and I’m confident that we will be able to take advantage, in the short term at least, of currency fluctuations to be able to deliver economic growth in those areas where exports can be delivered in a very strong and robust way.

Adam Price AC: Maybe I can help the Cabinet Secretary out. There is only one other European country that lacks a dedicated trade and investment agency, and that’s the Ukraine. To be fair to them, they are a country currently under military occupation. The reason that countries have dedicated agencies is that they work. The World Bank says that. The OECD says that. All the published evidence says that. Now, there are certain people who say, of course, that we shouldn’t listen to experts, and that we shouldn’t focus on facts. I’m sure he doesn’t agree with that. Countries with dedicated investment agencies attract two and a half times the level of inward investment compared to those without, and that’s borne out, actually, by the Welsh Government’s own statistics. Our share of inward investment jobs is 50 per cent lower now than it was under the WDA. So, as part of his new economic strategy, can he say that his mind is open, that he will look at the evidence, and that he’s interested in hearing the views of key stakeholders as to whether Wales should now create a dedicated trade and investment body?

Ken Skates AC: I am principled, but I am also pragmatic. I remain open-minded, and as I’ve said on numerous occasions, I don’t have a monopoly on wisdom. I do listen to experts, and I do have an open mind on this issue.

Adam Price AC: I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for placing that on the record. Following on from the question from Russell George, the Welsh Government, in response to the feasibility study in 2015 on the development bank, said that its preferred approach was one that specifically prescribed a management and organisational structure different to that currently managed by Finance Wales, i.e. not Finance Wales. And yet, speaking at the Cardiff Breakfast Club last week, Giles Thorley, the CEO of Finance Wales, said, ‘Let me let you into a secret; in almost every definition, Finance Wales is already a development bank.’ Since that directly contradicts his own Government’s report and his own Government’s policy, what confidence can we have, in asking Finance Wales to draw up a business plan for a development bank that was meant to replace it, that this isn’t just a very elaborate and expensive rebranding exercise?

Ken Skates AC: No, the development bank for Wales will have access to far more resources to be able to then pass on and to lend to businesses across Wales. I have every confidence in Giles Thorley and also in Gareth Bullock to deliver a bank that offers not just more lending, but also offers bespoke, tailored advice to the business community, which is what they’ve called for for many years.

<p>Small and Medium-sized Enterprises</p>

Neil McEvoy AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the effectiveness of the Welsh Government’s engagement with indigenous SMEs? OAQ(5)0034(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. We continue to support indigenous businesses and have a record number of active enterprises headquartered in Wales. In 2015-16, we supported over 40,000 jobs in all sizes of businesses here in Wales, which included 5,000 jobs created and safeguarded through our Business Wales service.

Neil McEvoy AC: Okay, thanks. In terms of engagement, what I’m really talking about is communication. There was a city deal conference last week, with dozens of Assembly officials and over 200 delegates, but there was only one person from a small business. So, I think that needs to be addressed. So, what will you do to ensure, in particular with reference to the city deal, that SMEs will be included and will be listened to?

Ken Skates AC: Well, SMEs are always listened to and are always included where we are involved in events and activities. We have a very, very good working relationship with the Federation of Small Businesses. I note that the Member refers to the event that he was at last week. I’m sure that he has now received a letter that outlines that it was an untrue statement that he made in Plenary last week to the First Minister—

Excuse me; you cannot make a claim that a Member made an untrue statement in this Plenary.

Ken Skates AC: I’ll retract that statement.

Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: I’ll instead refer to the letter that the Member received that highlighted how much support Welsh Government gives to small businesses right across Wales and that this Government is business friendly.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on the ability of Welsh SMEs to take part in projects procured by the Welsh Government? I had a discussion in relation to this with NPS engineering consultants, an engineering firm based in Chepstow in my constituency, just before the election. That firm had, worryingly, given up on trying to procure Welsh Government contracts, because, despite the clarity of the process, which they did actually commend the Welsh Government on, there wasn’t sufficient weighting given to locally grown Welsh firms. As a result, the larger firms are undercutting them and getting contracts, even though the smaller firms think that, in the longer term, those contracts will be more expensive. The local firm in question has no problem procuring contracts across the border, from Hereford and Worcestershire councils, for instance. This can’t be right. Is there some way you can look, along with the Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for procurement, at ways that we can create a more level playing field so that Welsh SMEs, indigenous businesses, find it easier to complete?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, absolutely, and perhaps the local firm that the Member refers to is a firm that he and I could visit together to discuss the problems that they’ve encountered and the solutions that we might be able to present. In terms of the Welsh Government’s procurement portal, Sell2Wales, it was set up to help businesses win contracts in the public sector. Since June 2013, almost 14,000 notices have been published on Sell2Wales, and approximately 61 per cent of contracts have been awarded to Welsh businesses. Nonetheless, I believe there is work to be done to ensure that procurement benefits all businesses right across Wales, and I’d be more than happy to visit the company that the Member has been contacted by.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could I draw the Cabinet Secretary’s attention to a company in my constituency, the national-award-winning Sony Pencoed factory, and not only to that, but to the 30-and-more indigenous companies that have spun off from the Sony excellence in design to manufacturing on that site and the Sony Pencoed UK technology centre? It really is a case of developing our home-grown talent here in Wales—companies like Mesuro Ltd, which I visited a couple of months ago, which is a spin-off of Cardiff University’s world renowned centre for high-frequency engineering, or Wales Interactive Ltd, a developer and publisher of interactive entertainment products for a global, worldwide market, and many, many others. So, I would welcome the Cabinet Secretary, at some time in his busy schedule in the near future, to see the excellent work from Sony, and from all those companies that have spun off from that base on the site, but also to see the way in which established, award-winning companies with a track record in design to manufacturing can fuel a growth in indigenous companies in a range of sectors. It really is a classic case of together stronger. So perhaps I could invite him to come and discuss this highly successful model for business incubation.

Ken Skates AC: I’d be delighted to do that. It sounds like this is an exceptional cluster of economic activity in your constituency. I think it would also be helpful if we invited those companies to contribute to the development of the new economic strategy.

<p>Economic Development in North Wales</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 4. How is the Welsh Government encouraging economic development in North Wales? OAQ(5)0023(EI)

Ken Skates AC: We are taking several wide-ranging actions to encourage economic development across all parts of Wales. In north Wales, we are exploiting the significant opportunities that will arise from investment projects such as Wylfa Newydd, providing support through our dedicated business support service and investing in various transport schemes.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, as you know, in this morning’s Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee you made reference to mainline electrification, to proposals for a north Wales metro, and to investment in the A55. You also said a growth deal bid for north Wales needs to be submitted by end of this month. Given my understanding that the UK Government is offering additional funding, and that line improvement and signalling improvement are seen as building blocks to electrification, which will be accelerated by the growth deal, are you able to tell us what dialogue you have had thus far with UK Government? I know, or I believe, you’ve been speaking at least to the Under-Secretary of State to this end—to what extent that might involve the devolution of economic and growth levers. It was my understanding that that was something sought by the UK Government.

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I’ve discussed this matter not just with the Under-Secretary of State, but I was actually discussing it as well with the Secretary of State himself on Sunday. We very much hope that the growth deal bid will be submitted in full as a proposal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the end of this month. I would also hope that the business case for electrification of the main line in the next control period will be approved. It’s essential in the development of a growth deal for north Wales that we are able to work locally with local authorities, with the Mersey Dee Alliance, with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, with the UK Government Ministers, and also to look at—and I’m on record as saying this—the potential of a cross-border economic strategy, with a cross-border economic unit to ensure that we deliver maximum growth in that area of Wales.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Tourism is a vital sector in the economic development of north Wales, and with that I welcome this Government’s commitment to create an A55 culture corridor linking attractions across the region. Flint castle was certainly a major attraction this last weekend, as a dragon descended on the outer bailey of the castle drawing in visitor numbers in their thousands. It was really brilliant to see just how many people went down there to see the dragon, to take the odd selfie and, for the more intrepid wannabe dragon tamers amongst us, actually scale the dragon’s back. I look forward to building on that buzz now with the further investment into ‘Shakespeare’s castle’, but Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me on the value of the visitor economy to Delyn and across north-east Wales, and will you work to continue to invest in innovative ideas at visitor attractions that boost our communities and also draw tourists to north-east Wales?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her question? I’m delighted that the dragon, the Caerphilly dragon, was received so well in Delyn and at Flint castle. The pictures that I’ve seen show that many, many visitors, particularly young visitors, thoroughly enjoyed seeing the red dragon there. At this time of the year, when we’re celebrating an incredible performance by our national football squad, it’s a particularly appropriate time for the dragon to visit Flint last weekend. I’m pleased to be able to say that we will be investing in a new visitor centre at Flint castle, and Flint castle will benefit from a world-class installation, which is part and parcel of a national competition that’s taking place as part of the Year of Legends.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Do you recognise, Secretary, the need to develop north Wales as an economic powerhouse in its own right? Clearly, it’s important that we get every possible economic benefit from neighbouring developments such as the Northern Powerhouse by the UK Government, but of course there is concern with the city region developments in south Wales, and the Northern Powerhouse in England, that north Wales could fall between two stools. So, my question is essentially this: how do we ensure growth for the indigenous economic powerhouse of north Wales, rather than just relying on other areas?

Ken Skates AC: Well, it’s my view that we in north Wales—and I speak as someone who was born there, grew up there and who lives there—has as much to offer the Northern Powerhouse as the Northern Powerhouse has to offer north Wales. We have a good deal to contribute. It’s predicted that up to 70,000 jobs can be created in the next two decades in north Wales. I’m confident that that can be achieved through a greater degree of cross-border collaboration. I do not see cross-border collaboration in any way, shape or form as a threat to the culture or the language of Wales. Particularly for north Wales, I think that by being closer together, by working closer together, we can create more jobs, more opportunities. At the moment, the region contributes something in the region of £35 billion to the UK economy. The growth potential is enormous, but we also should recognise that if we are not part of a cross-border alliance then there is a risk that with the city deals, with the momentum that is behind the Liverpool city region, Manchester city region and the Cheshire and Warrington local enterprise partnership, that we could end up in competition with those cities and those county areas. We would not wish that to happen if, instead, we can collaborate and offer a regional economy where we are all offering something that’s complementary. Twenty thousand people each day cross the border from Wales into England. Twenty thousand people cross the border from England into Wales. As far as people who are accessing jobs are concerned, the border doesn’t exist. So, what we need to do is ensure that growth on both sides of the border benefits both sides in terms of the people who live there.

Michelle Brown AC: Wales has the opportunity at the moment to attract investment from England by providing a more favourable place to set up a business, which would bring desperately needed jobs into Wales. I’m sure everybody will agree with me that the more businesses we can attract here and the more jobs that are created the better. The present business rates regime hampers the creation of new businesses since it saddles a business with a large payment right at the beginning, before even that business has dealt with a single customer. Does the Welsh Government have any proposals to support new and small businesses via, perhaps, restructuring the business rates regime so that businesses are charged on the basis of profit or turnover, as opposed to the nominal value of the property they occupy?

Ken Skates AC: This is a point of ongoing consideration by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, but the Member is right, we should use every lever at our disposal to attract investors to Wales. Last year, we recorded the second highest level of inward investment here. That’s something that, again, we want to make sure that we maintain. In terms of financial support to businesses, we have the Wales microbusiness loan fund, which amounts to £6 million. We have got the Wales technology venture investment fund and we also have £21 million of new finance to help small and medium-term enterprises grow in Wales, which can be accessed through two Finance Wales funds. We also, of course, have the £5 million repayable fund for SMEs. We’re keen to attract not just inward investment, but to ensure that our existing companies grow and prosper in Wales, and to ensure that we have entrepreneurs who have access to the resources, the advice and the opportunities to set up business here in Wales in the communities in which they’ve grown up so that they don’t need to leave Wales.

<p>Support for Manufacturing</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 5. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policies to support manufacturing? OAQ(5)0029(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. Manufacturing in Wales is vitally important to the Welsh economy. We offer a wide range of support to the industry, including help and advice on areas such as international trade, research, development and innovation, improving workforce skills, finding new business premises, e-business support and tendering for public sector contracts.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you for that answer. As you’ve highlighted, manufacturing remains a vital sector in the Welsh economy, particularly in the Valleys. However, despite the best efforts of the Welsh Government, the sector continues to shrink in terms of its relative importance to other sectors in the economy. Given the very serious new challenges that Brexit will pose to manufacturing, would you agree with me that it would be timely for Welsh Government to review the performance and prospects for Welsh manufacturing and to develop a manufacturing strategy for Wales to meet these challenges?

Ken Skates AC: I think the time is right, given the vote that’s taken place, for the development of a new economic strategy that takes account of the fact that we’ll be leaving Europe, but also ensures that manufacturing grows and prospers in the future. The Member is right in her analysis that manufacturing is a shrinking sector across the UK. But, here in Wales, it still accounts for 11.3 per cent of all workforce jobs in the country, compared to 7.8 per cent in the UK as a whole. So, it’s a crucially important area of work, a crucially important part of the Welsh economy. We also know that jobs in manufacturing—and this is very significant—in Wales rose 6.3 per cent last year. That sort of progress is something that we should be proud of and that we should be seeking to build upon. Some 165,000 people now, in Wales, are employed in manufacturing as a whole, and that is something that we will be building on by attracting companies such as Aston Martin and TVR to our country.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: According to the Business Wales website, Ebbw Vale enterprise zone has ambitions to become a vibrant, high-technology hotspot for manufacturing companies of all sizes. However, between 2011 and 14, only 172 jobs were created at this enterprise zone. Last year, only eight jobs were created there. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to promote and to support Ebbw Vale enterprise zone to encourage companies to set up and to create manufacturing jobs there?

Ken Skates AC: There are various ways and means of promoting enterprise zones. They have budgets, not least to promote themselves, to market themselves and the services and the benefits of investors locating within them. The Member may be aware that we will be publishing data on enterprise zone performance very shortly, and the Member may wish to take note of the figures for the latest year.

David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: I’m sorry, Presiding Officer; I only have a secondary question.

It’s okay.

David J Rowlands AC: I do apologise for that.

Question 6—Lynne Neagle.

<p>PCS and National Museum Wales</p>

Lynne Neagle AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the outcome of the industrial dispute between PCS and National Museum Wales? OAQ(5)0030(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. I am pleased that this long-running pay dispute has now been resolved and that all national museum sites have reopened to the public.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, and I’m sure other Members in this Chamber were, like me, very pleased to welcome the resolution of the long-running dispute, and I’m very grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary, for your efforts to bring this dispute to an end. I would also like to pay tribute to all the museum workers who stood their ground on the issue of fairness to the lowest paid, especially the staff in my constituency at Big Pit, for their commitment, and I’m absolutely delighted to see Big Pit up and running again. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in recognising the dedication of all the staff at the museum, and will you continue to emphasise in your discussions with museum management the necessity of working in partnership with staff when introducing future changes?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, absolutely, and can I first of all put on record my thanks to the local Member for her relentless and her resolute support for the loyal and dedicated workers that she refers to? The outcome of the PCS ballot and resolution of the pay dispute was publicly confirmed on 24 June. I’m pleased that 78 per cent of PCS members voted to accept the enhanced offer made by the national museum. I’m pleased that the Welsh Government was able to assist in bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion. Now, I am sure that there are lessons that are to be learned from this experience, and I did meet with the national museum’s president and director general recently. I have no doubt that any issues that have been identified will now be taken forward by management at the museum and by PCS, and I am aware that the museum is now working to implement the pay award and compensation payment to eligible individuals in this month’s payroll. I now encourage the national museum and the unions to work to rebuild the bridges that have been damaged and to develop a more positive relationship for the future—one in which all workers have confidence that their concerns are being listened to.

Bethan Sayed AC: I was involved with the dispute from the start, and what I’d like to ask you, Minister, is whether you think that this could have been resolved sooner had you, as Minister, intervened sooner, to make sure that this wasn’t a two-year dispute? Also, I would like to hear your answer with regard to what management has told me: that continuous in-year cuts did not aid them in the situation with the staff at the museum. Will you commit, therefore, to not putting forward more in-year cuts to services that are now scraping the barrel and are vital in terms of promoting Wales to the outside world? I think it’s key now that you learn, as a Government, and learn with the management how to treat people with respect, because the PCS union went above and beyond what they should have done in this regard.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her question, and just remind her that this Government itself has faced the deepest cuts to its budgets in recent years imaginable? No area of my portfolio has been immune, I’m afraid, from having to make difficult decisions and implement budget cuts, with one exception—the Welsh Books Council, where there was an overwhelming feeling that a reduction in their budget would lead to a significant loss of jobs. The Member may also be interested to know that in Scotland, the dispute went on for more than four years. Here in Wales, the First Minister said that the priority of the incoming Minister would be to resolve this dispute within three weeks. I had it resolved. That’s something that I would like to thank union members for working towards. I’d like to thank Members of all parties in this Chamber for contributing to it. It’s something that I think we can now move on from, and I am sure that the museum has a very bright future. I’ll be considering the Randerson report, which offers a road map towards a very secure and sustainable heritage sector, one that is more closely aligned with the tourism offer across Wales and one that brings together those key elements of our heritage in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: During the recent dispute, the PCS union declared they had no confidence in the management of National Museum Wales. It was also claimed that a survey taken last year showed that 22 per cent of workers had been bullied or harassed at work. Does the Cabinet Secretary have confidence in the management of National Museum Wales, and what action will he take to reconcile both sides around the core aims of this organisation? This sort of thing should never, ever happen again in any organisation of your department. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: I’d like to say that the Member is absolutely right on this issue. I have been clear with the director general and the president of the museum that the results of that survey must be addressed, and that I expect to see a report on how the issues raised by the workforce are being addressed. I’ve also been clear that the workers at the museum—the people who ensure that visitors have the best experience possible—are better represented at the most senior level. That includes representation at boards of trustee meetings. I think it’s essential that employees are represented and heard and taken notice of.

<p>The Wales Bill and Integrated Public Transport Systems</p>

Dawn Bowden AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the opportunities that the Wales Bill could open up for integrating public transport systems in the south east Wales valleys? OAQ(5)0033(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. The Wales Bill, currently proceeding through Parliament, will confer new powers on the field of transport, which will complement the existing powers we already have, to deliver an integrated transport system across Wales.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and we’re all acutely aware, clearly, of the benefits that the city deal and the south-east Wales metro would bring to the Valleys areas of Wales. The risks to that development following Brexit we’ve rehearsed ad infinitum in the Chamber, so I’m not going to dwell on those. However, we have welcomed in this Chamber the announcement of the formation of the ministerial Valleys taskforce, a key component of which is building stronger transport links. Despite the existence of local transport plans, which sometimes seem to be limited in vision to individual local authority areas, bus transport across the Valleys remains an issue. I was given an example the other day where to get to Aberdare from New Tredegar, the bus journey would take more than two hours and takes you via Pontypridd. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that any opportunity to reregulate bus services in Wales arising from the Wales Bill would provide a golden opportunity to ensure that, as new employment opportunities are created in the south-east Wales Valleys, those who only have access to public transport are not excluded from seeking to take up such opportunities because of poor, slow and infrequent bus services?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I would, and I’d like to thank the Member for raising this important issue, and perhaps invite her to write to me formally regarding the bus service from Tredegar to Aberdare, which I’d like to take a closer look at, if I may, and perhaps make representations on behalf of her constituents. Further devolution in respect of the traffic commissioner’s functions over bus registration will give us the opportunity to consider changing how bus services are delivered right across the country for the future, and to ensure that services are designed to meet the needs of passengers in accessing employment opportunities in the key services. We’re also facilitating quality bus partnerships. We are growing our TrawsCymru service, and we are ensuring that our funding is directly linked to improving quality through the introduction of quality standards as of next year.

<p>Attracting Visitors to Wales</p>

Jayne Bryant AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s strategy to attract visitors to Wales? OAQ(5)0028(EI)

Ken Skates AC: Yes. It is now three years since the launch of ‘The Welsh Government Strategy for Tourism 2013-2020 Partnership for Growth’. This sets a 10 per cent growth in real terms in respect of overnight visitor expenditure in Wales by 2020, and we are on track to exceed that growth.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The ‘Wish You Were Here’ study found that music tourism from festivals and concerts generates up to £113 million annually for the Welsh economy. Our ability to attract more events, conferences and festivals will be boosted by the international convention centre, built as a joint project between the Celtic Manor and Welsh Government, when it opens in Newport. Designed to attract major events from across the world, it will rival any convention centre in Europe. Smaller festivals, which are a mix of music, art, literature and comedy, like the one in my own constituency in Caerleon, also play an important role. What support and encouragement can the Welsh Government give to attract large-scale events to Wales while also supporting grass-roots festivals that add to the rich variety of our cultural life?

Ken Skates AC: Yes, this is a very interesting area of work. I actually asked my officials to carry out some research concerning the most inclusive forms of artistic activities and it was found that smaller festivals and musical concerts are actually the activities, the events, that people are most likely to go to from right across the socioeconomic spectrum. So, I’m very keen to ensure that we do maximise opportunities for local community festivals and concerts to grow. We’re committed to attracting more major international sporting and cultural events to Wales, especially those that help to maximise the return on investment in existing and in planned facilities. We’re particularly keen to attract those events that offer an opportunity to volunteers to become participants. In the coming years, with our support, Wales will host some of the world’s biggest and most prestigious events, such as the Champions League final and the Volvo Ocean Race. Alongside these global brands, we’re also supporting a thriving portfolio of local and regional cultural events and festivals, such as the Machynlleth Comedy Festival, the Good Life Experience, the Iris Prize and Focus Wales and also, of course, RawFfest.

And finally, question 9, Dai Lloyd.

<p>Infrastructure Projects in the Swansea Bay Area</p>

Dai Lloyd AC: 9. Will the Minister provide an update on infrastructure projects in the Swansea Bay area? OAQ(5)0026(EI)[W]

Ken Skates AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Sir Terry Matthews and his colleagues on the city region board are continuing to identify priorities that deliver shared aspirations for growth and jobs, including regional collaboration to further develop the region’s digital and transport infrastructure.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. Following the Brexit vote, is the electrification of the railway from London to Swansea still going to happen?

Ken Skates AC: Well, we have been assured by the UK Government—or, we were assured before the referendum took place—that all investment that was due to come from the EU would come from the UK Government. We expect every penny to come. We expect every contract that was signed or agreed to prior to the Brexit vote to be honoured, and it is my hope that we will see—and I expect to see—electrification of that line, which fuels the regional economy of south Wales and the Swansea bay area.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

We now move to item 2 on our agenda, questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

<p>The Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust</p>

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Ambulance Trust? OAQ(5)0027(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I’m pleased with the significant progress made by the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust in implementing the organisational changes to the service recommended by the McClelland review. In May, the target for responses to the red category of the most life-threatening emergencies had been met or exceeded for the eighth month in a row with 75.5 per cent being answered within the target time.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. A matter that has come to light recently, certainly in my own constituency, is the nature of the questions asked by call handlers when first dialling 999, when somebody is calling an ambulance on behalf of someone not personally known to them. It’s happened to me twice in recent weeks where I haven’t known the person, but they’ve fallen outside my office. The series of questions leading to some serious delays have been found problematic, simply because you cannot, often, answer the type of questions that you’re asked if you don’t know the person. Only recently, a local shopkeeper has been left in shock after being unable to answer such questions, and the individual concerned was actually rapidly deteriorating before his very eyes. He felt quite helpless and worried by the delay, and sadly the individual has since passed away.A recent Wales Audit Office report highlighted concerns about call handling and classifications, and a recent freedom of information request submitted by us showed communication and attitude as an issue for many making complaints to the ambulance trust. I’m really quite unsure as to how the emergency call handling system works on behalf of each different emergency service. Cabinet Secretary, having raised my really serious concerns on this here with you today, will you assure me that you will work with the trust to ensure that call handlers are more sensitively taking into account an individual calling an ambulance in the first instance? This should be considered as an urgent priority.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I think it is important to try and understand how best to deal with concerns people raise when ringing call handlers. I can’t speak for every other emergency service and the way they deal with matters—of course, one of them is not currently devolved—but I do expect that, in examining all the information of the ambulance quality indicators and looking at the review of the new model that we have that will come up this autumn, there is a proper opportunity to look again and to review to see if we have appropriate questions being asked to make sure that people are then dealt with sensitively as well. If people do feel that they have constituents who have not been handled in a sensitive manner, I’d be happy to receive those comments and questions if you haven’t already taken them up with the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust.

Dawn Bowden AC: The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the developments of the Choose Well campaign, which has been promoted jointly by a number of health boards, the ambulance trust, Welsh Government, trade unions and other organisations, as you know. The campaign encourages the public to stop and think before calling an ambulance for non-emergency or life-threatening conditions, or before turning up to A&E with relatively minor complaints and ailments. Instead, the public are encouraged to refer to pharmacists, GPs, NHS Direct and other alternative care pathways, thus freeing up ambulances to respond to red 1 calls and relieve pressure on A&E.Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this campaign has been a contributory factor in alleviating some of the pressures, but the marginal increase in the overall number of emergency calls being received by the ambulance service highlights the need for continued widespread support and publicity in the drive to educate the public on the appropriate use of emergency services?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. Thank you for the question. You make a completely fair point about how we encourage and equip the public to make more informed choices, to access healthcare appropriately so that if you don’t need the precious resource of an emergency ambulance response, there are other alternatives available to you and how you access those is easily understood and available. So, there is more work that we need to do to make sure that that information is available, as well as wanting the public to engage in that information. I’m grateful to all of the key stakeholders, including your former employer, for actually trying to positively highlight the Choose Well service and the information that is available so that people can make that properly informed choice.

Simon Thomas AC: How many times in the eight months that you were talking about, Cabinet Secretary, have the targets been met in the Hywel Dda health board area? And, who’s responsible for that failure?

Vaughan Gething AC: I expect to see further improvements in response times in every single health board area—

Simon Thomas AC: How many times?

Vaughan Gething AC: And I expect, when we see the next series of quality indicators in the next quarterly report at the end of July, that you’ll see I’m optimistic that Hywel Dda will have hit its response times, because it hasn’t always done so at the start of the pilot. This was part of the recognition of where we are. Across the whole of Wales, we’re hitting the target. The challenge is, in those areas where we’re not doing so, what could we and should we do about it? That is ‘we’ in its broader sense. It’s about what the ambulance service does; it’s about what the commissioners of the service do and it’s also, actually, about understanding what community first responders do as well, because it isn’t just an issue for rural Wales and, often, community first responders are the first port of call in getting someone the help they need initially, on the scene. That’s especially relevant in rural Wales, so I’m really pleased to see that the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust are working with St John’s Ambulance to develop a new pathway and a new model for community first responders and the service that they can provide.I actually think that if you bear with us, you’ll see further improvements in Hywel Dda and other parts of Wales, that I’m sure will better serve you and your constituents.

<p>Accident and Emergency Units in North Wales</p>

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 2. Will the Secretary make a statement on accident and emergency units in North Wales? OAQ(5)0022(HWS)[W]

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. I am encouraged to see further improvements in performance against the four-hour target and a reduction in lengthy waits during May. Despite daily attendances rising by 8 per cent when compared with the previous month, eight out of 10 patients spent fewer than eight hours in emergency departments from arrival until admission, transfer or discharge. I have made clear, as has the NHS Wales chief executive, that further improvements are expected.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: You will have received, as I have received, a letter from a former nurse who has broad clinical experience. She also was a non-executive member of the north Wales health service. In the letter she described what she saw in the Wrexham Maelor emergency department last month. She mentions in her letter a shortage of staff, a shortage of beds and the impact of that on the ability of patients to access the treatment they required in a timely manner, and to move through the system and ultimately leave hospital. In her professional opinion, she says that it’s inevitable that a continuation of that situation will lead to fatalities. That’s a very serious accusation, but would you agree that until we see more appropriate staffing levels, and until we see more beds in the system, then the likelihood of seeing an end to some of the scenes that she describes in the letter is remote?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I think it’s fair to say we need a whole-system response to the challenges that are being faced. So, it’s about: how are people conveyed to an emergency department, going back to Dawn Bowden's question earlier, to ensure people make an informed choice about what to do? It’s also about how primary care have tooled up to deal with unscheduled care, to make sure that people who can be seen and treated within their community setting and don’t need to go into an emergency department in the first place—. Then, of course, it is about what happens in the transfer between ambulances and hospitals, where people are there and need to be there. What we do need to then make sure is that flow takes place through the whole hospital system and out of the back door; that’s then the point about delayed transfers of care within the NHS and with social care too. So, I recognise that all of those things have an impact. Staffing levels and bed numbers are only part of the challenge, and we do need to look at it in its whole sense. That’s why the unscheduled care board does look at this through that whole-systems approach. I was really pleased to attend the seasonal planning forum event last week where, actually, that whole-systems approach was in evidence, and, also, all partners were there to discuss what they needed to do to improve the whole system for the benefit of the patient and the staff working in the system.

Mark Isherwood AC: Welsh Government targets say that 95 per cent of patients should be seen within four hours, and none should wait 12 hours or more, but in the May figures you refer to, only 82.5 per cent were seen within four hours, in A&E units in north Wales, just 79.9 per cent—the worst in Wales. Eight hundred and fifty-six people in north Wales waited more than 12 hours, the highest level in Wales, with Glan Clwyd, I think, the worst performing hospital in Wales on the 12-hour targets. You talk about changing figures, well, that was unchanged since November and worse than December 2015. How, therefore, do you respond to the repeated concern amongst staff and patients in north Wales that the removal of minor injury units and NHS community beds added to the pressure on A&E and that a twenty-first century solution must include the restoration of both those services?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. I’ll start by making clear that, whilst there has been a welcome reduction in the number of 12-hour waits over the last month, there’s no illusion that we’re in an acceptable position. I don’t think the number of 12-hour waits is acceptable and, in my earlier answer, I made clear that that message has been given to the service and the expectation is improvement. I’m not persuaded, at this point in time, that minor injuries units are part of the solution unless there is evidence that we can staff those properly. There is the need, going through them, to actually be able to deliver a service properly. I’m interested, as I said in the first part of this question, in having a proper whole-system approach and making sure that people are sent to services that are appropriate, that they are given the care that they need and that the options they need are available. But, as the evidence is made available on what we are doing and what we can do, I’m happy to look again at the way the system is organised, so if there is a real answer to improve outcomes for patients through patient experience then we’ll do that, but, at this point in time, I don’t think there is an evidence base to reintroduce minor injuries units on the basis suggested.

<p>Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople</p>

I now move to the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. First this week is UKIP spokesperson Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the recruitment and retention of doctors in both primary and secondary care has been described by many, including many of the royal colleges, as a ticking time bomb. In primary care, we have the dual problem of failing to recruit enough GPs and, due to an ageing population, an increasing number of GPs retiring. The Royal College of General Practitioners told me that we need to recruit 400 full-time equivalent GPs, yet, last year, we recruited under 140. What is your Government doing to ensure that we train more GPs in Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. I’ll start with the one point of disagreement, which is that I don’t think there’s any real evidence that the ageing population is leading to early retirements in our GP workforce. There are a range of pressures upon primary care and secondary care, which are felt right across the UK, and that includes GP recruitment and a range of specialities in secondary care too. I really do recognise that that is the case.We currently fill 75 per cent of our training vacancies. That is a better fill rate than in Northern Ireland, Scotland or England. So, our challenge is not to set a target that we can’t actually achieve. If I set a target of 400 extra GPs, there’s no real basis for thinking we could fill that number of GPs. I think the first thing is to make sure that we complete all the places that we have available, that we fill those, and then we reset our ambitions and we understand exactly who and what we want from our workforce. That’s why the commitment we’ve given is to look at the GP workforce and to come forward with proposals to improve GP training and, at the same time, the broader primary care team. Because the model of care could, should, and will change in the future. So, it’s about being sensible about what we can do. But I’m really pleased to say we’ve got the buy-in of stakeholders in proceeding on this basis.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Perhaps we can move on to the retention of doctors. Hugely increased workloads and the stress of managing in an overloaded primary care system have been blamed by many GPs as the reason behind their decision to move overseas or to retire from general practice altogether. What is your Government doing to reduce the workload of our GPs to ensure they are not overworked and to ensure that we can retain our GPs?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for her second question. This is one of our challenges: how do we retain professionals within the workforce? Some of this is about making it easier to stay on different terms, some of it is about making it easier to return to the workforce as well. So, that’s part of the work that is already ongoing with stakeholders, in particular the British Medical Association’s GP committee, and also the Royal College of General Practitioners. But it’s also part of understanding that we need to have a broader primary care team, because, to take workload away from GPs, we need to send them to an appropriate extra place. That’s why advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists—both clinical pharmacists and community pharmacy—as well as the therapists, like physiotherapists, are part of the answer. So, GPs do what they should do, and we transfer other people who don’t need to see a GP but have a healthcare need to be met in primary care, and have the appropriate professionals to go to for that advice, support and treatment.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I would like to touch upon the training of our doctors. According to the BMA, it costs over £0.75 million to train a registrar, and over £500,000 to train a GP—a significant investment from the Welsh NHS. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to asking for a minimum term of service in the NHS before those doctors are able to enter private practice or move overseas?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for her question, which is topical. It’s part of our ongoing conversation about what sorts of incentives we provide for people: so, the additional support that we provide for people in training, and what we can then expect back. So, that is part of the work that we’re taking through with those stakeholders to understand whether that sort of bonded arrangement could be successful in keeping doctors here in Wales. But it’s only got to be part of the answer, because we want to make Wales a really attractive place to live and work and train. So, this is part of the conversation that we are having about the profile of training to make sure that GP training opportunities are a much bigger part of what doctors get before they make their speciality choices. So, there are a whole range of different measures that we are actively considering with our partners, and I expect to have more to say about this in the coming months.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. And I’m sure recruitment and retention in the NHS isn’t helped by UKIP-style rhetoric on migration.Mi ydym ni’n gytûn, gobeithio, Ysgrifennydd, bod yn rhaid sicrhau hawl dinasyddion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i aros yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn y dyfodol. Ac mae’r Prif Weinidog, yn sicr, wedi crybwyll yn barod bwysigrwydd meddygon, nyrsus ac eraill o dramor i’r NHS. A all yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ddweud a ydy o a’i adran wedi cymryd unrhyw gamau penodol yn y mis diwethaf i gysuro y staff allweddol hynny, i roi sicrwydd iddyn nhw bod croeso iddyn nhw yng Nghymru a’n bod ni am iddyn nhw aros?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I fully support the point that’s being made. I’m pleased to see that Parliament actually passed a motion confirming that they want EU citizens’ status here to be retained and safeguarded. Here within the NHS in Wales, and across every single Government department, we’ve been keen, over the last few weeks since the Brexit vote, to make very clear in our public statements, when seeing staff, and when standing on platforms—that we do make very, very clear that this Government values the contribution of EU citizens, and from around the rest of the world, who are feeling uncertain about their place in our country. We value the contribution they make to the service they provide, but also to the communities of which they are a part, and I look forward to them being a part of Wales, not just at present, but also as a key part of our future as an outward-looking country.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It doesn’t sound as if a specific assessment has been made; I’m a little surprised about that. The uncertainty we’re facing is in danger of undermining the NHS, and we can’t afford to wait for the Government to take action. We will not go over the problems that Wales is facing now in terms of attracting and retaining doctors, but I will turn towards terms and conditions of the NHS staff. The Welsh Government, of course, has pledged not to copy what Jeremy Hunt has done in adopting a new contract for doctors. Does the Cabinet Secretary see it likely that we will see an end to pay discussions on a UK level in the next few years for all NHS staff, and what preparations is the Secretary undertaking to ensure that we have a specifically Welsh attitude towards pay and conditions that reflects the value of NHS staff, the need to retain experienced staff, and, of course, that shows young people that they can and they should be aiming for careers within the NHS in Wales.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question. We have regular conversations with our stakeholders in the trade unions about their position on a range of different parts of terms and conditions, including the negotiations we have had in the past with them about pay. And so we need to make sure the conversation is rounded between what the representatives of the workforce actually want to achieve and what we’re able to do as a Government as well. In terms of junior doctors, given the comment that you made about imposition by the UK Government, I want to make it really clear again: this Government will not be imposing a junior doctors contract. Any changes that are made to junior doctors contracts’ terms and conditions will be done by agreement, on a basis of respect, and I’m looking forward to meeting the British Medical Association, following my invitation to meet with them here in Wales, to discuss the position here in Wales and how we take that forward on that shared and respectful basis.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And I would urge the Ysgrifennydd to look at the real opportunities that would open up to us from following a Welsh path. Doing things differently, as we’ve seen with junior doctors, really can mean doing things better. I think it’s quite clear that Wales is going to need more doctors and more nurses, more occupational therapists, physiotherapists—you name it—over the next few decades. In fact, I doubt that there is a profession in the NHS that won’t require more staff. We’ve heard about GPs, and, if not 400, what is it? Three hundred, 200, 100—you tell us: you bring up a target that you want to aim for. But we’ve been calling for proper workforce planning for several years and still don’t have a national workforce plan. Will there be a plan that reflects on the issues that I’ve touched upon here, and when can we expect to see it?

Vaughan Gething AC: We’re committed to a 10-year workforce strategy; we’re working through that with our partners and stakeholders. We’ve had the Jenkins review and I expect to see advice on that in the near future. We’ve also had the review undertaken by Robin Williams, the former vice-chancellor of Swansea University, on education and training. So, we’re properly considering where we are, and what we want to do in the future. It has to take account of the health service we have and the health service we want to have as well. And this is a really big challenge for us, regardless of our political shades and colours, because you made the point that you expect there will be more NHS staff in virtually every single grade and profession. That is the demand, and that is the expectation, at a time of austerity. So, it means that there are really difficult choices for the health service, let alone for every other part of the public service, in the way in which we spend Government money. So, we have to have an honest discussion about what we can do and the budget choices that we make, and in the discussions each party will have an involvement around our budget, and then what we actually can do with the resource that we have. But I’m confident that, in the way that we are currently working, we will be able to provide a workforce strategy that our partners will buy into and support. You only need to look over the border again to see what happens when you don’t have that level of agreement. But I won’t pretend to you or anyone else in this Chamber that, by producing a workforce strategy, everything will be easy, because it will not. We have very real challenges; some of them are across every health system in the UK, but I’m certain that we will be able to match our ambition with our ability to recruit staff at the right grade and at the right point to deliver the sort of quality of care that everyone has the right to expect here in Wales.

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson to ask her questions to the Minister for Social Services and Public Health—Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I think it’s my first chance to congratulate you on your post; I know it’s the last day of term, virtually. Six years ago, the Scottish Government introduced the short-breaks fund to provide respite for carers and replacement care for those they care for. Labour pledged in its ‘Healthy & Active’ manifesto to:‘Investigate the benefits of establishing a national carers respite scheme in Wales’.The benefits would be 60,000 hours of replacement care for just over £1 million, with all the related savings to the public purse in terms of hospital admission, drugs, mental health interventions and even unemployment. Can you tell us when the Welsh Government will introduce such a scheme here?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you very much for that question and I’m acutely aware of the important role that carers play in supporting the people—the loved ones—whom they care for, but also the economic benefit that they offer to our country as well, as you’ve just outlined for us. In reflection of that, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 gives, for the first time, carers the same rights as the people whom they care for, which I think is a big step forward in terms of our support and our commitment to carers. But you’re absolutely right that our Welsh Labour manifesto identifies respite care as an important service for carers. In fact, when I meet with carers and carers’ organisations, and when my officials do so, respite really does come up as the No. 1 ask for carers, whether it’s a few hours a week or a week or two a year. So, I think we need to take a flexible approach to that. So, I’ll be ensuring that respite care and alternative care are very much a key priority when we deliver on another one of our commitments, which is to refresh our carers strategy. That will be happening later this year. I know that this particular approach is supported by our stakeholders as well. We’ll be having further discussions with health, with local authorities, and the third sector in terms of how our respite offer will look for carers in future.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that response. I’m not quite sure if it’s quite said that there will be a fund introduced as a result of the carers strategy, but I’ll watch out and hope for the best on that for now.Moving on, some good news from the Princess of Wales Hospital in my region and, indeed, from the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board as well: as a matter of course, they’re now taking a common-sense approach to the role of carers when consulting, treating and sharing information about patients with dementia. I think it comes to something when carers are being asked routinely to produce copies of powers of attorney before a carer can be given vital information when it’s clear that the patient themselves doesn’t have the mental capacity to understand what they’re being told. Can you give us an indication of the arguments that you’ll be putting to the Cabinet Sectary for health about the rights and responsibilities of carers, which will need to be reflected in the new dementia strategy?

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank you again for that question and you’re absolutely right in identifying that carers play a crucial role in supporting people with dementia. Our dementia vision in Wales is very much about supporting people with dementia to stay at home for as long as possible and to play a full part in the community. Obviously, carers have an absolutely key role to play in that. As you know, we’ll be refreshing our dementia vision. Again, this happens this year, and, on our task and finish group for that, we’ll have the Wales Carers Alliance, so they’ll play very much a key role in advising Government on our future provision for people with dementia and the role that carers can play. I think it’s extremely important that health and social care are able to share data so that people don’t have to tell their story three times to three different professionals and go over the same data over and over again. So this is something that we’re trying to make some real progress on as well. Many carers are dementia champions—they play an important role in our Welsh Government support through the Alzheimer’s Society for creating dementia-friendly communities with a view to creating a dementia-friendly Wales. We have 2,000 of those champions at the moment, making a real difference at a very local level, and it’s worth reflecting on my attendance recently at the British-Irish Council, where we had a special discussion on the role of carers particularly. Our administrations identified older carers and carers who support older people as a particular area on which we would like to focus across our administrations in terms of sharing best practice and working together to improve things for the carers and the cared for as well. So, I hope to have some progress made there as well.

Suzy Davies AC: Well, thank you for that answer as well. If I am hearing you correctly, there will be a sort of cross-over between the dementia strategy and the carers strategy, in terms of the input that goes into both from the Carers Alliance, for example. I know that what I’m going to ask you next is something that is of great importance to everybody here in the Assembly, and that’s the fact that, in recent years, we’ve seen the amount that local authorities are willing or able to pay for the cost of care services and care providers. I hope that we would all agree that the very least that care worker could expect is a living wage; payment for travel between visits, if they are working in people’s homes; reasonable hours for work; and time to care properly for the people that they are looking after. I know that the social services Act envisages different models for delivering social care, but costs are still going to rise, regardless of the model, as the needs of the population grow, not least, of course, through us all living longer. What work are you doing now to plan for the medium- and long-term financial sustainability of paying for social care, regardless of which model is adopted in any given part of Wales?

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you. You’re right to identify that paying for social care and coming to a sustainable, secure long-term future for social care is critically important, given the pressures that you have identified on public services and the aging population, and people’s quite rightly ever-increasing expectations of the kind of social care that they will be able to receive as well. So, I am very alive to this issue, particularly the issue that you mention of differentials in pay as well. Local authority staff do tend to be paid well above the statutory minimum, but they do tend to be paid better than those in the voluntary sector, who in turn tend to be paid better than those in the private sector, who tend to be at the minimum as well. So, there’s a differential there, and there’s important work that we need to do in terms of raising the status of people who work in the care sector in Wales as well, and making it an attractive field for people to come into as well. We need to have career progression, and so on. Care work needs to be valued, because there’s no more important job, really, than caring for the most vulnerable people in our society. The responsibility for setting pay levels resides with the providers themselves, but we do have some levers in Welsh Government that we can use to try and deal with this. They include a two-tier code, which I’m happy to write to the Member with some more information about. That does ensure that local authorities, when they outsource services to an independent sector, can’t lower the kinds of terms and conditions that the people who are employed can expect. We’re also currently consulting on proposals, using powers under the new Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, to increase transparency on pay and reinforce compliance with statutory requirements. That includes paying for members of staff travelling between seeing clients as well.

<p>NHS Services in North Wales</p>

Darren Millar AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on access to NHS services in north Wales? OAQ(5)0020(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The vast majority of people access the NHS through primary care. We remain committed to improving access to primary care, working with clusters. This will include new initiatives like improving pharmacy-based services and physiotherapy-based services and other therapies as well. We will of course maintain our commitment to also providing high-quality care within our hospitals.

Darren Millar AC: It doesn’t surprise me, Cabinet Secretary, that you fail to mention the referral-to-treatment-times targets, which of course have been missed on a regular basis and have been for many years here in Wales. And, of course, the hospital that serves my constituents, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in Bodelwyddan, has some appalling referral-to-treatment times that it’s currently working to: ear, nose and throat appointments, 36 weeks, just for the first outpatient appointment; restorative dentistry, 35 weeks; orthodontics, 76 weeks from referral to first appointment; pain management, 42 weeks. The list goes on. When are you going to pull your finger out and get this situation sorted, so that my constituents can get access to services when they need them?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question, put with your usual calm and dignified manner. I would, of course, note that, in complaining about no reference to RTT, there was no reference to RTT in your question. If you want an RTT question answered, then actually ask it. When it comes to RTT across the NHS, we’ve actually seen significant improvements in the last six months. [Interruption.] I’ll answer your question if you want to be quiet and actually let me speak. In the last six months, we saw significant progress in RTT within Wales—a really impressive improvement right across the NHS. But we recognise that we have real challenges in maintaining and improving headline performance, including RTT, as well as resolving and reforming the services that deliver that. What we can’t do is expect to see sustained improvement in RTT if we don’t change the models of care that we are running. Just putting more resource into that won’t deliver the sort of services that people expect and deserve.So, we need to manage two things: we need to make sure that, in a difficult time with less financial resource, we do make sure that we see improvement in that headline rate of performance, and, at the same time, the way in which that care is provided changes as well. That’s why the planned care programme, with plans for orthopaedics, ENT and ophthalmology, to name but three, is really important, because changing the way we provide these services is actually the real answer to having the high-quality care people expect in the industrial volumes in which people do now attend for these particular treatments. So, I’m actually optimistic about what we’ll be able to achieve in Wales, and I hope that your constituents, and others, will see a real difference in the quality of care provided, the outcomes of that care, and the experience of the care that they receive from our national health service.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that giving patients faster access to the appropriate service or healthcare professional is critical to ensuring that people are treated as quickly as possible? Therefore, what steps are being taken in north Wales to ensure that patients have the option to be treated by the right healthcare professionals whilst also supporting our GPs?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I absolutely agree with the point that is being made, and this is part of the challenge of dealing with headline RTT, actually, because lots of people who are on lists at present don’t actually need operative procedures, and so, it’s partly about making sure they go to the right place at the right time at the start of their care journey. So, for example—I’ve talked about this before and I’ll keep on saying it, because it is a really good and obvious example—physiotherapy services and primary care. About 30 per cent of people who attend GP appointments have musculoskeletal problems. Almost all of those people could see the physiotherapist first, and most of those people will have their issues resolved by the physio. If they then need to be referred on, either to a GP or a specialist, that can take place. That will release pressure away from the GP—and also what we’re doing in pharmacy as well. The Choose Pharmacy platform is really important, because of not just the value of the minor ailments scheme, which is of value in itself—and we’ve seen examples of significant percentages of people being deferred away from the GP to pharmacy appropriately—but also the opportunity for more services to be delivered in the community pharmacy setting, releasing time and pressure for GPs to see people who really do need them and the expertise that they provide. So, that will be a consistent theme of this Government, and I believe patients will see a definite difference and improvement as a result.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Following a decision taken by health chiefs in Cheshire to close a special unit for babies born before 32 weeks in the Countess of Chester Hospital because of the increase in the number of deaths there, and to move it to Arrowe Park, can you tell us what impact this will have on babies from Wales and intensive care services for newborn babies in north Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for the question—I’m aware of the issue, which is obviously a serious one. We do have proper commissioning arrangements for care where it’s needed for babies to travel, but the additional potential travel is an issue that we need to think about, and how we support families. I’m interested in making sure that, in the care that we do need to commission, where people will naturally need to go for services across the border in different parts of Wales, that we’re properly assured about the quality of care that is provided, but also that our families are supported when they need to go over the border for this particular specialist care, but also, with the special care that we provide within Wales, that we assure ourselves about the quality of care and the sustainability of that care as well. So, it does mean that there are difficult choices for us to make about properly concentrating the very specialist care that this does represent and making sure that people have good, quality access to the very best care, and not simply making sure that we provide lots of different services that aren’t sustainable and that don’t provide the right quality of care that I think families and babies deserve.

<p>Health Services in Pembrokeshire</p>

Paul Davies AC: 4. Will the Minister outline his priorities for health services in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0019(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: My priorities are to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. I will, of course, be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice to deliver the high-quality healthcare that the people of Pembrokeshire deserve.

Paul Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, you won’t be surprised to hear me say that my constituents’ priorities are to reintroduce the special care baby unit and full-time paediatric services at Withybush hospital. However, you’ve made it quite clear that the Welsh Government’s changes to services at Withybush hospital have come about as a result of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health review, which concluded that there was no harm facing patients in Pembrokeshire. But I put it to you that, in order to be meaningful, the review should have collated and collected a large pool of data over a significant period of time before concluding that there is no harm facing patients. Therefore, in the circumstances, what plans does the Welsh Government have to conduct more research into this matter so that the statistical evidence is fully reliable, because I believe that the changes that have been made are unsafe for the people that I represent?

Vaughan Gething AC: There is absolutely no evidence to say the changes are unsafe, and I really do regret the manner in which this debate is approached, because people are unnecessarily worried and concerned when elected representatives say that services are unsafe or are dangerous. That is deeply unhelpful. There is simply no evidence to support the assertion that the Member has made in this Chamber and in press comments locally. In fact, what we do have as an evidential base is the fact that there has been no clinical harm to any baby or mother who has delivered their child under the new arrangements. In fact, 210 women have presented to Withybush midwifery-led unit since it has been opened. Three quarters of them have delivered safely within the midwifery-led unit. A quarter have been transferred for safe delivery to Glangwili, and, in fact, the same proportion have delivered home births as well.This is a successful system delivering quality care to women and their children, and that is what we want. We need to invest in and respect the professionalism of midwives and the job that they do. We need to make sure that specific, specialist services are provided on a model that is sustainable and delivers the quality of care that people need. Now, that is my commitment to the people of Pembrokeshire, and right across Wales. If the evidence changes, then we’ll look again at the system that we are delivering and at the quality of care being provided, but, at this point in time, there is zero evidence of clinical harm as a result of the changes that we have made, and I’m proud that we have made changes based on evidence and that people are receiving a better service as a result.

Eluned Morgan AC: I’d like to follow up the question that was asked by Rhun earlier, and that is: in the light of the decision in England to reject the contract by junior doctors, there could be a real impact in terms of morale in the NHS in England. I just wondered if you could tell us what you could do in addition to really attract, possibly, some of those people who are disillusioned with the system as it is being conducted in England.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. As I said earlier, we do not intend to go down the route that England is going down by imposing a contract. A big reason why that contract was rejected was because doctors don’t trust the UK Government, and that’s such a damaging state of affairs. I’m pleased that we do have a relationship of trust with the British Medical Association here in Wales, and they recognise that after the vote on rejecting the junior doctors contract. So, I will be meeting them, and we will of course be making clear to junior doctors in England and any other part of the UK that they will be respected and valued if they want to live and work here in Wales. It’s not just about making the offer to people in England, but to positively say there are good reasons to come here to Wales to live and work in a system where they will be trusted and respected. We are actively listening to and engaging with doctors to understand what we need to do to improve the quality of training available. I’m actually really optimistic about this because the Royal College of General Practitioners and the BMA themselves are actively engaged in the work that we’re doing. They think that we’re on the right path and we’re doing the right things. The challenge for us is to do it at scale and at pace and deliver the sort of healthcare that we want here in Wales, and the number of doctors that we recognise we need as well.

Simon Thomas AC: In light of the fact that there is a shortage of GPs and primary care services in south Pembrokeshire, I would like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary that he is confident that the service is safe for the constituents in Pembrokeshire. Secondly, would he like to explain why he hasn’t supported making the experiment of the minor injuries unit in Tenby, which was opened over Easter, into something that is available throughout the tourist period at least?

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. I have regular contact with people in south Pembrokeshire about the quality and nature of primary care services. It is absolutely an issue that crosses my desk on a regular basis and I do take an interest in it. I have not had people present to me with concerns about the safety of the service; rather more worries about the quality of care and how people access that care is the primary concern that is brought to me. There are a range of interventions that the health board has provided, including providing extra nurse practitioners, extra therapists and, indeed, paramedics to help support primary care in that particular part of Wales. So, the health board are being genuinely proactive in addressing the issue. When it comes to minor injuries, and in particular the seasonal nature of the additional minor injuries work that goes in, following the pilot over Easter there’s been an evaluation and the health board is actually working through a more regular and sustainable service for doing that, and understanding what they need to commission for the seasonal additional level of interest and service they’ll need to provide. They’ve already agreed, in fact, to make sure that there is an additional service through the summer months by commissioning a service through St John Ambulance as well. So, this isn’t an issue where people are being ignored, or where recommendations and evaluation reports are being rejected; it is simply about working through how that is delivered in a sensible manner so people do get the quality of care that they need at the particular times of the year when there are additional pressures on that service in that particular part of Wales.

<p>Paediatric Services in West Wales</p>

Eluned Morgan AC: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on paediatric services in west Wales? OAQ(5)0034(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. The recent independent review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health stated that the changes to paediatric services in west Wales in 2014 have led to improved outcomes and better compliance with national clinical standards. We are investing in the service to secure further improvements for families in west Wales.

Eluned Morgan AC: Cabinet Secretary, as you’ll be aware, the Hywel Dda health board is engaged with clinicians and patient groups to look at developing an enhanced patient pathway for paediatric services in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire by the end of the year. On a recent visit to Withybush and Glangwili, I was made aware of the reliance on doctors from outside the UK to ensure that we can fulfil the rotas in paediatrics in particular. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that it doesn’t help to attract doctors when it’s suggested that that care that is provided is unsafe. Since the Brexit vote, Hywel Dda health board has written to non-UK medical staff in the light of an increase in race hate incidents across the UK. I’ve helped to launch a campaign to encourage patients to go that extra mile to thank those doctors who’ve come to help us in Wales to provide that service. Will you join with me in extending that welcome and ensuring that NHS services will not be adversely affected by the EU vote and that those doctors who are here to help us will indeed be made to feel welcome?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I quite agree with the points that are made. The level of intolerance that I’m sure each of us has seen within our communities, directed at public servants and people in private life as well, is something that I feel deeply ashamed and angry about, because I want our country to be a properly outward-looking, welcoming place where we value what people do and what people bring to us and our country. In particular, in the health service, we are reliant on a range of health professionals from around the world to make the service work, to deliver the quality care that we value. I really do think that the messaging the NHS is giving, and Members of the Cabinet are giving, to all parts of the service, making it clear that we welcome the fact that people are here, we want them to stay and they are welcome to stay and keep on delivering that real value to our services, is really important. We can’t say it often enough. On recruitment, I should say, I’ve met a range of doctors who have been recruited from within the EU and outside and it’s a good example of a health board that has changed its attitude in the way it talks about its services and has been more successful in selling the idea of living in west Wales as well as working there in a really successful manner. There’s a lesson there for other health boards about what they can do if there’s a level of ambition and equally if the clinical community is prepared to say, ‘We want these services to work and we want to be part of making that work and attracting more people to come to work with us as part of the healthcare team’.

Angela Burns AC: Minister, there’s a shortage of community paediatricians in the Hywel Dda health board. One of the areas that this severely impacts is the provision of support and diagnosis for young people and children with autism. Despite reducing waits, we still have some people waiting two to four years for an autistic diagnosis. I don’t need to tell you that the earlier these young people get that diagnosis, the better their life chances are of being able to be the best they can possibly be. That is surely our aim for them. Now, Hywel Dda are trying their best, so they assure me on a constant basis; what I would like to know is what you are doing to monitor not just Hywel Dda health board, but actually all health boards, to ensure that there is adequate provision and to see what we can do to attract some of these much valued clinicians into our country.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for her question and her genuine interest in this area. We’ve had half a discussion about this and I’m sure we’ll have more discussions through the life of this Assembly term. You’ll be aware that we’re due to have an autism strategy. We had a consultation that concluded shortly after the election. We’re analysing the responses and we want to make sure that the action that we take is actually about improving the position for individuals and their families, so for the carer group around individuals with this developmental condition—it really does matter too. And, we’re investing new money in the service. At the end of this year, I expect us to be able to publish our new strategy and action plan with the investment that will go with that. I do believe that we will see improved outcomes for families and the people within them, because these are a range of conditions that many Members in this Chamber will understand, from either direct experience or from constituents—I certainly have members of my extended family, and so I do have some understanding of the impact this can have on changing the lives of whole groups of people around them. We want to make sure that our service provides the support that they would quite rightly expect.

<p>Training Doctors in North Wales</p>

Siân Gwenllian AC: 6. What is the Welsh Government’s long term strategy for training doctors in north Wales? OAQ(5)0026(HWS)W

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We are working with the Wales Deanery, the NHS, the royal colleges, the British Medical Association and professional bodies to ensure that we make Wales an attractive place to train, work and live for any doctor in training, with a particular focus on some of the issues in north Wales. As I said earlier, I will have more to say in the coming months, as we work this through with our key stakeholders to produce a refreshed long-term strategy.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. Almost half of all the doctors on the Llŷn peninsula are over 55 years old, and a large number of them are expected to retire over the next five years, which will lead to a real crisis in the area. There is some evidence that doctors tend to remain where they were trained. So, in order to tackle this shortage of doctors there is a strong argument, as you have mentioned, for having an all-Wales long-term plan to increase the number of medical training places. But, in addition to that, there is also a strong argument for the creation of a new medical school in Bangor so that we can expand provision across Wales, and particularly in north Wales. The First Minister has agreed in this Chamber recently that we need to consider drawing up a business plan for a medical school for north Wales and, indeed, there is a great deal of support from stakeholders within the health sector and the HE sector for this. There is a particular opportunity to create a medical school that can specialise in providing medical services in rural areas. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit today to participating in full in the process of creating a medical school in Bangor?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I recognise what you say about the profile of GPs in a range of different communities, including across north Wales. That’s why it’s important that we have new models of care that actually provide the sort of care people will want, and that new GPs will want to go into, because there is a change in the way that we provide the service and how people expect to work. That’s why part of what I’m looking at is the exposure that doctors have in training to primary care at an earlier stage, because there’s good evidence and logic to say that, if that happens, people are more likely to want to opt in to a career in primary care as well. That has the support, again, of our key stakeholders, as something for us to look at. In terms of your point about a new medical school, I recognise why the Member would want to make a bid for a new medical school in her constituency, and I recognise the real interest there is in this particular area. What I’ve said, and what I will do, is I’ll look at the case for a new medical school. I’ve asked officials to do some work on what that might or might not look like, because if the evidence is there that it’s something we could do and it would deliver on what we want it to—that it would recruit people, and that it would help us—then I’m interested in seeing what that means and how we could achieve that. I also want to see what currently exists with the clinical school and the arrangements for training in north Wales, even if there is not a new medical school. So, I will be guided by, practically, what we can do and what we should do to ensure that we more doctors in training and more doctors who are interested in working in the various different parts of Wales, including the position you described in north Wales.

<p>Engaging with Patients in North Wales</p>

Mark Isherwood AC: 7. How is the Welsh Government engaging with patients in North Wales? OAQ(5)0021(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: We are committed to engaging with people throughout north Wales. As part of the special measures, the health board is required to improve how it engages with staff, the local population, partners and stakeholders, and is committed to developing a more effective engagement model.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, as you’ll know, the north Wales health alliance has written to you—a broad coalition of campaigners and groups across the north Wales region—congratulating you on your appointment, saying that they hope we don’t see a repeat of some of the mistakes of the past and asking whether you will commit to holding meaningful consultations with patients before any major change is initiated and to respond positively to patients’ concerns. They note the ‘OECD Reviews of Health Care Quality: United Kingdom 2016’ comments about Wales, which called for a stronger central guiding hand from the Minister.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. There are two different points here. The first is about central services and the central guidance that the OECD refer to, and they’re not really talking about the Government overtaking the role of local health boards in engaging with their local population to explain their proposals for improving the service that people receive. As I said in my initial answer, as part of special measures, we recognise that this particular health board in north Wales had a problem in engaging with its local population, and engaging in genuine consultation about proposals for service change. That’s part of what we expect them to improve upon. They have made progress. It isn’t complete, and I wouldn’t say that it’s job done. So, it’s work in progress, but I’m really clear that the local health board have to be able to properly engage with people before service changes are made, and to properly consult with them. But this is also important—about the clinical community and wider NHS staff being engaged too, because they have to be a part of engaging with their local population. They are people that people will trust, and value their opinions too, and there was a real fracture in the relationship in the past. I’m pleased that positive progress has been made. I expect that to be continued, and I will also be looking at the objective assessment of regulators at the next tripartite meeting to understand whether adequate progress is being made in this area, as in the others of special measures in north Wales.

Finally, question 8, Leanne Wood.

<p>Doctor Recruitment</p>

Leanne Wood AC: 8. Will the Minister make a statement on doctor recruitment? OAQ(5)0029(HWS)

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. We will continue to work in partnership with health boards and trusts to market Wales and the NHS Wales as an attractive place for doctors to train, work and live. We will continue to prioritise those hard-to-fill specialties where recruitment challenges remain right across the UK.

Leanne Wood AC: Minister, Cwm Taf local health board tell me that the reason that they are closing Horeb Surgery in Treorchy is because they can’t get another GP to work there; the existing GP is now going to work elsewhere having begged the health board for assistance. One colleague is working at the surgery for nothing at the moment in order to help her colleague out. The reputation of the health board has suffered amongst GPs as a result of the way that they’ve handled the Horeb Surgery situation, and that will undoubtedly impact on their ability to attract GPs to the area in the future. Now, you questioned earlier on the need for 400 new GPs; that’s the figure that’s been put out there. If it’s not 400 GPs, how many do you think we need to overcome these problems? What responsibility do you take as health Minister for the lack of workforce planning and for the shortage of GPs, which has led to this decision? Do you take any responsibility at all for the closure of this surgery in Treorchy?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. It is, of course, a matter of fact that we have more GPs than ever before in the health service; the challenge always is how many staff we need at what grades to provide the quality of care that people will rightly expect, and it will be a changing model of care. Horeb is an example of a model of care where they could not recruit and they couldn’t attract other GPs to work in that particular model. I do need to correct part of the statement; the health board have not closed this practice. This practice has returned its contract. It has said it won’t be providing GP services. That is not the same as saying the health board have closed the practice. In fact, patients are being properly cared for; they will be provided with alternative GP services within the local area—in the very local area, in fact; there are a range of GP practices within the town. My concern is how we remodel primary care to make sure that people do have high-quality care within their local communities. That’s why we’re looking at the work that clusters do, and I’m really encouraged by the work of clusters right across Wales, because I expect that in the future, there will be fewer but larger primary care practices. I expect that will happen by means of amalgamations and federations, and I think that will actually provide a more stable service and a better service with a wider range of services for people. It’s also why we have to talk about other primary care professionals, because if you were listening to the earlier answers about the need to make sure that therapist services are available and the need to make sure that advanced nurse practitioners are available and the role of pharmacists, that’s actually easier to do and to achieve in a different model of care. We see that in north Wales in Prestatyn, where we’ve remodelled the service with a number of GPs and other healthcare professionals for the same level of income, but a broader and better service that people are really enthusiastic about working in, and patients themselves recognise that they have not seen any fall in the quality of care they are provided with, and actually people are really enthusiastic about that model. There is a time and a space for a sensible conversation about remodelling primary care, and I really do hope that people engage in that conversation in a grown-up manner that recognises we all have challenges to face, but I’m optimistic that we can face them properly here in Wales, and we can be really proud of the service that we are providing for every single community.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Statement: The Circuit of Wales

We move on to item 3, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the Circuit of Wales—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you. I’d like to update Members on progress with the Circuit of Wales project following a meeting I had earlier today with Michael Carrick, chief executive officer of the Heads of the Valleys Development Company and Martin Whitaker, chief executive officer of Circuit of Wales. As Members will be aware, we have been working with the Circuit of Wales and providing financial support to develop this project over a significant period of time. We recognise the potential positive economic impact it could have for Wales, and Ebbw Vale in particular. It is a large undertaking and we have always been clear that any support provided by the taxpayer needs to be proportionate and fair.The Heads of the Valleys Development Company was established in 2009 and has subsequently developed plans to create an automotive cluster, centred on a performance racing circuit designed to host international motor sports events. The racetrack is planned to be situated just north of the Rassau industrial estate in Ebbw Vale, with the aim of attracting a range of two and four-wheel racing events, including Moto GP, with a target of attracting three quarters of a million visitors a year within three to five years of start-up. The project is forecast by the developer to create 300 full-time equivalent jobs, consisting of 49 full-time roles and 3,500 part-time temporary staff for events. There would also be employment opportunities created during the two years the track would be under construction. The often publicly quoted claim of 6,000 jobs is predicated on the assumption that additional jobs would be created by businesses, particularly in the engineering and automotive sectors, clustering alongside the circuit and also by other employment multipliers such as hotels and catering. The main benefit to the Welsh economy would be derived from the future investments that might be expected to be created by the existence of the circuit, but, accordingly, this involves a degree of uncertainty and can only be seen as a long-term aspiration.The Welsh Government has been engaged with the Heads of the Valleys Development Company since 2011, since when the company has sought financial support from us at each key stage in the project’s development. It is important to remember that when this project was first presented to us, we were told it would be one that would be fully funded by private sector risk capital without the need for a Government guarantee. At that stage we made a commitment to part-fund the project development and agreed to grant aid of around £16 million towards certain aspects of the circuit project, primarily to support the creation of jobs. This grant aid was conditional on the Circuit of Wales raising the necessary private finance. Unfortunately, despite the best efforts of the company, they were unable to raise the stated private investment and, accordingly, they have been unable to draw down this grant.Earlier this year the Circuit of Wales asked us to consider a new proposal with an alternative financing structure. Their plan sought a Welsh Government guarantee to underwrite 100 per cent of a project finance facility provided by Aviva Investors of £357.4 million. This level of guarantee would have increased the exposure to risk of the Welsh Government by around 15 times.In April, my predecessor, the then Minister for Economy, Science and Transport, decided that it would be an unacceptable risk to underwrite the entire £357.4 million investment for the project, but stressed that our door remained open if sufficient private investment could be secured that presented a fair share of risks between the public and private sectors.The developer submitted a revised proposal for discussion in mid-April, which, following observations from Welsh Government officials, was further refined and resubmitted at the end of May. The latest proposal has been presented by some commentators as a solution where the majority of the funding is coming from private finance. However most of this funding still requires a Welsh Government guarantee, and taken in conjunction with loans provided by local authorities, the public purse still holds the majority of the risk.Including both direct Welsh Government guarantees and local authority loans, the latest proposal put forward by the Circuit of Wales asks Welsh Government to underwrite around 75 per cent of the total £370 million cost of the project, with local authorities underwriting a further 8 per cent. Unfortunately, despite the efforts of the project backers, this leaves only around 17 per cent of risk being taken by the private sector.That amount of risk falling on the Welsh taxpayer, through Welsh Government and local authority support, is unacceptable as it currently stands, especially at a time when we are facing significant economic uncertainty from a UK exit from Europe. In our view, this project does not currently provide the level of value for money necessary for the amount of public funding being put at risk. On that basis, I have today told Michael Carrick and Martin Whitaker that I believe further work is needed on this proposal. My door remains firmly open and I’ve urged them to revise their bid in such a way where the private sector takes more of the risk in order for this project to be taken forward. We need to see at least 50 per cent of this project funded and 50 per cent of the risk underwritten by the private sector to justify value for money for Welsh Government and the public purse and they have accepted this principle. My officials will now work constructively with the Circuit of Wales team to ensure this project can be successfully delivered to benefit the local economy of Ebbw Vale and Wales at large.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today, although it is disappointing that there is yet another delay on this project—a dash, potentially, to the hopes of the community who’ve had so many false dawns, since their area was deindustrialised some decades ago. As the Cabinet Secretary has mentioned, millions of pounds of public money have already been provided to progress the Circuit of Wales project. Is it, therefore, reasonable to conclude that that was done without Welsh Government being clear about the precise nature of its intentions regarding the project as a whole? The Cabinet Secretary has said that his Government has engaged with the Heads of the Valleys Development Company since 2011; why are we here in 2016, and only now has the Government set out its red lines, its business proposal? Is the Cabinet Secretary able to reveal when the 50:50 liability share between private and public sectors became Welsh Government policy in relation to this project? And can he elaborate on why, for this project, such a breakdown has been deemed appropriate?Whilst we fully accept the need for serious care when Government underwrites private schemes, Government usually does so, of course, when markets fail. In this case, a failure to invest in areas such as Blaenau Gwent under normal market conditions. Government intervention is therefore crucial in order to secure employment in such areas. Why has there not been a clarity of communication between Welsh Government, local communities and investors on that basis? As someone who has spent part of my upbringing in Tredegar, I, in my relatively short life so far—so far—have seen hopes raised and dashed in places like Blaenau Gwent; promises of new opportunities made and then taken away. And here we have, again, years and years of raising and dashing hopes of people and communities who’ve suffered intolerable poverty and unacceptable levels of deprivation. Is it any wonder that so many, for so long, have lost all hope that things will ever change? Will the Cabinet Secretary give his honest assessment on whether or not he believes this project has a future? And what impact does he believe this sorry saga of many years will have on the long-term economic prospects for our Valleys communities?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions? It’s a shame that the Member doesn’t recognise the fact that I’ve been able to enter this role with a fresh pair of eyes and have been able to set a very clear bar for the Circuit of Wales—50 per cent of the project costs and 50 per cent of the risks being covered by the private sector. This is a private sector project and, yes, whilst there is market failure in parts of Wales, and it’s a responsibility for Government to make sure that there is investment in those areas where there is market failure, where there is a private sector project in play, it’s essential that the risk to the taxpayer is brought to a minimum, and that the value for money for the taxpayer and for the public purse is promoted to the highest possible level. That’s why I have set the bar at 50 per cent and the Member may wish to reflect on what I said at the end of my statement, which is that the Circuit of Wales has accepted that principle. Surely that shows that we have been able to secure the best possible deal for the taxpayer in ensuring that this project can go to the next stage.

Russell George AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. The construction of the Circuit of Wales is a fantastic opportunity not only for the south Wales Valleys, but for Wales more generally. So, it is disappointing news today; I think there’s no getting away from that. But I hope that the Circuit of Wales project still remains an exciting project that can offer great opportunities to provide investment and jobs in the area.The project has been estimated to create 6,000 full-time jobs ranging from research and development to hospitality, as well as a further 3,000 construction jobs. I note your comments in your statement today in that regard, but these jobs were promised to be delivered to local people. The project has also promised training placements and providing a significant amount of upskilling as well in the region, and, of course, increased tourist opportunities as well—providing an estimated £15 million to boost the local and regional economy. So, today’s decision is regrettable, especially at a time when the Welsh Government have set up a new taskforce to manage the regeneration of the south Wales Valleys and when local councils have expressed a willingness to contribute to the scheme as well. I understand that the Welsh Government, of course, must exercise caution when spending public money. I fully agree with that concept, but, at the same time, there’s got to be a recognition that the kicking of this project, potentially, into the long grass, beyond the summer, will be a huge blow to the region. There’s no getting away from that. Now, given the fact that the Welsh Government has rejected the initial proposals, due to the unacceptable risk, can I ask the question—I don’t think you answered this fully—that the Plaid spokesperson did ask with regard to when the 50:50 risk to underwrite was submitted to the developer? I think there are questions here of when that was put to the developer, why the developers weren’t made aware of this at a much earlier stage, why it appears, only now, that this been put forward. Perhaps you can provide some clarity on that.You also mentioned in your statement that there are uncertainties in the country as a result of the country leaving the European Union, which I accept as well. But are you suggesting that, perhaps, the decision might have been different had the outcome of the referendum been different? There’s a slight implication of that and perhaps you could clarify that as well.You said in your statement today that you’ve met with the developers this morning or today, and I’d be grateful if you could perhaps talk to us about what you discussed in that meeting with regard to a timetable for when you expect developers to provide revised plans and proposals to you. We also have to accept, of course, the possibility, and I’m sure you will as well, that the project may now not go ahead in that regard, because, clearly, with the announcement today, there may be some uncertainties among potential backers that this project is not so sustainable as it originally may have been. So, with that in mind, perhaps you could outline what regeneration schemes the Welsh Government will put in place to boost regeneration in Blaenau Gwent and the Welsh Valleys.Can I ask as well what the Cabinet Secretary’s assessment is of the wider impact on the local economy for other businesses that perhaps would have previously committed to setting up new businesses around the circuit of Wales site as well? Finally, is it your view—and I hope you can provide a positive answer to this—that developers are likely to come back with a revised plan that you believe that you will be able to back and support, and the project will go ahead?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions and just stress that, again, this is not a disappointing announcement, given that the Circuit of Wales have agreed to secure the majority of risk from the private sector in order to take this forward? If we step back to the origins of the proposal, when we were first presented with the Circuit of Wales vision, it was on a basis of no risk falling on the taxpayer’s purse. It subsequently went to the point where my predecessor was asked to underwrite 100 per cent of the risk. That was unacceptable. We have now been able to cast a fresh pair of eyes, in the form of myself, over the proposals. However, my predecessor had said that the level of risk had to come down considerably. The Circuit of Wales fundraising plans are still a work in progress, and the timeline for a formal application rests with the Circuit of Wales. I have now given them a steer on value for money, as was requested. So, I have determined that we need to reduce that level of risk down below 50 per cent and ensure that it is a private sector project.In terms of work that will take place to ensure that there is regeneration in the Valleys, my colleague Alun Davies is leading a ministerial taskforce to ensure that we exploit every opportunity to regenerate the Valleys, to ensure that we give every person in the Valleys an opportunity to gain quality employment as close as possible to where they live, so that people are proud of their communities, that people see their communities in the ascendance, not in decline.In terms of the jobs that could be created, as I’ve already stated, there is a business case that proposes a certain number of jobs to be created during the construction period, a further set of jobs that will be guaranteed as a consequence of the circuit operating, but then an additional estimate of 6,000 jobs that would be created through attracting key players from the automotive sector, and, of course, hospitality to the racing track. This is not a disappointing decision today. What I have done is outlined how I have been able to reduce the risk attached to the taxpayer’s guarantee of this important project. But, as I’ve said, the Circuit of Wales have stated that they are able to work to the principle I’ve outlined of 50 per cent—no more—risk for the public purse.

Neil Hamilton AC: I’m disappointed in the Cabinet Secretary, in whom I’d invested such high hopes a few weeks ago—[Interruption.]—when I welcomed him to his exalted position. I expressed the hope that, under his leadership, the Welsh economy would put its skates on. [Assembly Members: ‘Oh.’] Boom, boom. Unfortunately, he seems to have put it on the skids instead, as a result of the negative and unimaginative approach that has been demonstrated by this statement today.I don’t think it’ll give many people in Merthyr, Ebbw Vale, and towns like that, a warm feeling inside to know that, instead of the Circuit of Wales, they will have Alun Davies and a ministerial taskforce instead. How many jobs is that going to generate? This proposal would generate 1,500 jobs in the construction phase, and up to 6,000 jobs in the future, if the site is fully developed. It’s important, I think—and I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will confirm this—that the Welsh Government has not been asked to put in a single penny of further investment in this project, and it’s all being funded by the private sector, with the benefit of public sector guarantees.This is a £380 million project, so that’s a massive development proposal; £240 million of that is being put in by Aviva, in which I suppose we’re all, in a sense, technically investors, because they invest the pension fund contributions that we contribute in this Chamber. And, out of that, only £190 million has been asked for by way of a guarantee from the Welsh Government. So, that’s 50 per cent of the project funding. And, in exchange for that, a commercial fee has been paid—or is proposed to be paid—of £3 million a year to the Welsh Government. That guarantee will be secured on the assets of the project, once they have been created. There will be no guarantee at all in the construction phase. So, this 50 per cent guarantee will be secured upon 100 per cent of the assets, and what’s being asked for, therefore, is only a secondary contingent obligation, which comes into effect only on an annual basis if the earnings of the project, when completed, are insufficient to pay the guaranteed element of the Aviva funding for that particular year. So, there is no risk of the Welsh Government suddenly being presented with a bill for £190 million in any one year in the future.The economic impact of this scheme is expected to be worth £35 million to £50 million a year, in an area that is currently very economically deprived. The corollary of that, from the point of view of the risk that the Welsh Government is being asked to assume, is a guarantee call, which would, in the most extreme example, be in the order of only £8.5 million a year. Does the Cabinet Secretary not think that that’s a pretty good bargain for the Welsh people, generally, for the Welsh economy? And I hope that he will show perhaps rather more imagination in the future, because the Government is very strong on strategies for economic development, but in producing economic development, they’re a total failure.

Ken Skates AC: Well, I’d like to thank the Member for his question, but say I do hope that he will show more common sense in the future. I’m rather disappointed that the Member is saying—or inferring—that he would be content for the taxpayer to be exposed to 75 per cent, or indeed 100 per cent, of the risk of the project and yet he does not believe that the taxpayer should only be exposed to 50 per cent of the risk. I don’t quite understand why the Member would rather expose the taxpayer to all of the risk rather than half of the risk, because that is specifically what he’s said he’s disappointed in. I’m afraid there was a question there, but it’s one that didn’t make sense.

Adam Price AC: The Cabinet Secretary has twice said that the Circuit of Wales now accept his 50/50 split in terms of the guarantee. Can I invite him to say a little more explicitly if they have agreed to a 50/50 split immediately, or whether they have agreed to work towards reducing the exposure of the public sector to that 50 per cent level over time? Can I ask him this as well? He’s said, of course, that Wales and the Welsh Government are open for business, and yet this proposal has been on his desk for many weeks. The company has repeatedly been seeking to engage with him, and yet it was only this morning, with minutes to go to this statement, and a statement, actually, that changed from the written statement because those words that they have agreed to the 50/50 split were added because, of course, the negotiation was conducted with the clock ticking. Now, surely, that is no way to conduct a proper negotiation on such a large and complex project as this. Could he also say, as has already been raised, what basis is this new policy of the 50/50 split, which has landed like tablets of stone out of nowhere? What basis is that? Is it based on some UK Government green book policy, et cetera? We have the use of contingent liability, which is a standard procedure used by the UK Government, so where does this 50/50 split come from? And why prevent the local authorities? If the Welsh Government is prepared to accept a 50 per cent guarantee and the local authorities, because of the economic impact, particularly in some of the deprived communities, said, ‘We’re happy, on behalf of our residents, to actually take a little bit of this risk as well’, why prevent them from doing that? Why be so dogmatic in this case? He refers to risk. Risk in this context constitutes two elements of course: there’s the quantum of the guarantee, but also it’s the likelihood of the guarantee ever arising; i.e. will the project fail? And I put it to the Cabinet Secretary, if he believes—

Can I just say, there is a Minister who is making comment, and perhaps the Minister would like to be a bit quieter so that the Cabinet Secretary can hear what the Member is asking?

Adam Price AC: I have to ask the Cabinet Secretary: if he believes that there is a high probability of this project failing, why has he even been having the conversation for five years in any case? And, isn’t it true that his own Government’s due diligence shows there is almost a negligible scenario where the guarantee will be called in? Because it’s a strong project; that’s why. There is a strong business case. In which case, all of this is academic, and he should get on with the job and actually support this proposal in an area of Wales that is crying out for jobs and leadership.

Ken Skates AC: I note that many of the Member’s colleagues don’t share his views whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that many of the Member’s colleagues are utterly opposed to this project, so giving the impression that he and his colleagues are in favour of regeneration of that area through the Circuit of Wales, I’m afraid, is not quite the reality of the situation whatsoever. Indeed, the Member’s staying rather quiet at the moment. Indeed, I am exceptionally disappointed that the Member—[Interruption.]—again infers that it’s in the taxpayer’s interest to shoulder more of the risk of this project. The developers have already said that they can work to the principles set out, to ensure that we don’t have the project on balance sheet, to work to that principle. They have accepted it; they have said, yes, they can do it. So, I’m not sure what it is that’s driving this view that it’s better to expose the taxpayer to 100 per cent of a project rather than to 50 per cent and no more. It does not make sense whatsoever.

David Melding AC: I have to say, observing this, Cabinet Secretary, that you’ve not come to the Chamber and said, ‘Wonderful; we have an agreement and on this basis, we can secure the project’. So, I think your grounds are somewhat suspect. I have to say that, in your answers to Mr Price and to Mr Hamilton, you have not been at your finest hour. There was some real scrutiny, particularly from Mr Hamilton, in his questions and I do think you need to answer them. I have to say that it does amount to what is past practice. As we heard, the British Government has a long record as does, presumably, the Welsh Government and before that the Welsh Office, in terms of having to underwrite risk. We’ve had large projects before. Presumably, especially when these prestige projects are promised for very deprived areas, we look at it and it’s in the public interest then to provide that, underwriting that guarantee. I do think you need to get to some specifics very quickly on this. It has been a long time and, frankly, to come to this Chamber now and say, ‘We’ve just decided in the last half hour that this is the basis on which we can advance’—. Why on earth has this not been done before? If this project is viable, why haven’t you come in and praised the project and said that it’s now in a condition where it would be delivered?

Ken Skates AC: I did come into the Chamber and present our case. I said that this has potential to regenerate an entire area, we welcome it and our officials will be working with the Circuit of Wales to take it forward. But we have been able to reduce the level—I keep repeating myself and I do hope that Members will acknowledge it—of risk that the taxpayer is exposed to. That must surely be something that Members would welcome.Presiding Officer, I’m minded to publish, as fully as I can, risk assessments concerning the project and also to carry out a review of the process, so that we can be confident that it has been pursued properly and fully.

David J Rowlands AC: I want to address just a small part of this project, Cabinet Secretary, and notwithstanding the situation that you’ve outlined, and given that you’ve indicated that the door is always open, I therefore still find it very disappointing that Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council are not offering their support to this prestigious project, especially as this is very much in their catchment area for jobs, et cetera. Has the Cabinet Secretary any information as to why they’ve not engaged?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question, but this is very much a matter for local authorities? Whether they choose to invest in an economic development programme is a matter for them. I cannot answer on behalf of that local authority, but of course they have an opportunity still, if they so wish, to invest in it.

Nick Ramsay AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement update on this important issue? I’m pleased as well, Cabinet Secretary, that your door is still open to this project. You’ll know that Monmouthshire County Council has been very positive about the project’s potential. I do hear some of your reservations. Other Members have asked for clarification on many of the points that I was going to cover. Can I ask you, firstly, do you accept that it’s important that we distinguish between the underwriting and the guaranteeing of risk, compared with the funding of a project? I think that certainly many people who I have spoken to over the last few days are not clear as to what the Welsh Government is saying that it cannot do. You are not talking about funding this project; you’re talking about refusing to guarantee a certain level of risk. You’ve been adamant about that in the teeth of some opposition in this Chamber. Could you be absolutely clear about why you have set that level of risk at the level that you have done so? What independent assessment has been made by appointed experts and what were their conclusions? You’ve said that you would publish some information, I believe, as to why you’ve come to the decision that you have. I think it’s important that Members of this Chamber do see what independent advice you’ve had.In terms of state aid, concerns about that were expressed by your predecessor. As I understand it, the threshold that would risk a state aid challenge is no longer an obstacle. Can you confirm that is the case? In which case, it is good at least that the state aid issue has been taken out of this. Finally, what is your assessment of the level of external funding that is available? Does it include development funding, development partner funding, and contractor funding? If so, are we talking about around £20 million of external funding, or do you question that assessment?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question? He’s absolutely right: I think there is some misunderstanding about what it is that Welsh Government is being asked to provide resources for. It is underwriting; it is not funding of this project. I think there are many people in our communities who believe that a 50 per cent support underwriting or guarantee would amount to actual direct funding to the tune of something in the region of £185 million. It’s not. It’s about guaranteeing the funding from private capital. State aid is no longer an issue as a consequence of setting the bar below 80 per cent. In terms of the advice that we’ve received, the due diligence exercise was commissioned from Grant Thornton and Fourth Street. I have already given an undertaking to publish what I can—information that is not commercially sensitive—and I will do that.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. Motion to Change the Name of the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee

We move on to item 4, which is the motion to change the name of the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Mark Reckless.

Motion NDM6076 Elin JonesThe National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 16.3:Agrees that the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee, established on 28 June 2016, is retitled the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee.

Motion moved.

Mark Reckless AC: I move the motion formally on behalf of the Business Committee.

Thank you. The proposal therefore is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No objections. The motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Motions to Elect Members to Committees

The next item is the motions to elect Members to committees. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions—Mark Reckless.

Motion NDM6078 Elin JonesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects David J. Rowlands (UKIP Cymru) as a Member of the Business Committee in place of Mark Reckless (UKIP Cymru).

Motion NDM6079 Elin JonesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Michelle Brown (UKIP Cymru) as a Member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee in place of Mark Reckless (UKIP Cymru).

Motion NDM6081 Elin JonesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Nathan Gill (UKIP Cymru) as a Member of the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee in place of Michelle Brown (UKIP Cymru).

Motions moved.

Mark Reckless AC: I move the motions.

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motions are agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The BBC in Wales

The next item on the agenda is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, the BBC in Wales, and I call on Bethan Jenkins to move the motion.

Motion NDM6027 Bethan Jenkins, Lee Waters, Russell George, Jeremy Miles, Jenny Rathbone, Simon ThomasTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Regrets that the amount of money spent by the BBC on programmes for Wales in English has fallen by 25 per cent in the last decade.2. Believes BBC Wales has a vital role to play in reflecting the lives, aspirations and challenges of the people of Wales.3. Notes Lord Hall’s admission that the funding for English language content made in Wales for a Welsh audience has dropped to unsustainable levels, and therefore calls upon the BBC to outline in detail its spending commitments to Wales in the near and further future.

Motion moved.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thanks. I’m grateful to be opening this debate today. We initiated this debate alongside other Members of the Assembly on a cross-party basis in the context of the BBC charter renewal process, seeking to put on the agenda the importance of our relations with the BBC in this new political term of the Assembly, and to show them that we are not going away and that we will be scrutinising not only them but all broadcast and media provision here in Wales in the near future.It was interesting, doing the research for this debate, going back over some of the output that BBC Wales has provided to this country down the years. Some of you will know that, although BBC Wales was first established in 1964, in fact, the first broadcast in Wales was much earlier, in 1923, by a radio station called 5WA, which went on to become part of BBC programming. Some of the programmes we found would certainly jar today with our modern values. When we say that something is ‘of its time’, it can also mean that we have a vivid record of how people thought, talked and acted in a certain way in a certain period in Wales in the past. But that goes to the heart of today’s debate—that BBC Wales has a vital role to play in reflecting the lives, aspirations and challenges of the people of Wales. It is our belief that BBC Wales has, and must continue to play, a key role in ensuring that that continues. There can be little doubt that BBC Wales has retreated from this role, not only in recent times but in many years. That much was admitted by Tony Hall in a speech that he gave some two years ago now in the National Assembly for Wales. The reason this motion came about was primarily so that we as Assembly Members could express our frustration at the lack of action that has been taken in the meantime to address the director general’s observations. In fact, he came to a committee of the last Assembly and said almost the same thing as he did two years ago—yes, there is a lack of portrayal, and, yes, we are going to sort it out. Well, my message today is that you do need to show that you are going to do that now. None of this is to denigrate what BBC Wales currently does, and I think that’s important to say. Some of its work in the past 10 years—‘Sherlock’, ‘Life on Mars’, ‘Ashes to Ashes’, ‘Being Human’—has been successful. But they are not about Wales, fundamentally, nor are they set in Wales. You’ll know this from ‘Doctor Who’. Of course, a show featuring a time-travelling alien as its central character couldn’t be expected to be confined to this side of Offa’s Dyke. But how many times have we sat there watching it and muttered, ‘That's not London; that's Roath’? I think the senior management of BBC Wales does what it can, but the problem really is at the other end of the M4. We saw that only last week, I think, when the BBC announced that Wales would only have a voice on its board through a director of the nations and regions. This was their set-up before, and they've changed it back to that set-up. I would question whether this is a watering down of our influence on the BBC and whether we should have a non-executive director from Wales, as a public appointment is something that the Institute of Welsh Affairs has most recently raised in their report that we've had as Assembly Members today. As a new committee Chair for the communications committee—a committee with teeth, I hope it’ll be—we've already written to the BBC to ask them for details on this particular appointment and why they’ve made that decision without any consultation with Assembly Members or MPs or Governments, either on a UK level, as far as I understand, or on a Welsh Government level too.So, is it really BBC Wales's distinctiveness that is in question here? And the question is, following on from that: what can we do about it here in Wales? The key to all of this must be accountability. As with our organisation, as with other non-governmental organisations and charities, they receive public funding, and therefore should be compelled to explain their decisions while mapping out their possible outcomes. Yesterday, as the last annual review of BBC Audience Council Wales was published, both Elan Closs Stephens, BBC national trustee for Wales, and Rhodri Talfan Davies, director of BBC Cymru Wales, said, and I quote, ‘There are significant challenges ahead, and one of these is to ensure that a far higher number of our stories are heard and seen on our screens in Wales, across the UK and beyond. Despite the financial limitations, this must be a priority for the next charter period.’The role of the BBC in the life of the nation is crucial, and so it is only right and proper that we consider critically its work while defending it with vigour. Now, we must be determined and bold in our vision for its role in serving audiences in Wales in future. So, of course, as Assembly Members, we should welcome these comments as a statement of intent from BBC Wales, but words are not enough; we need to see action now from them. As Chair of the new Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, I look forward to inviting both the national trustee and Wales director of the BBC to meet with Assembly Members and put some meat on the bones of what they have said. When they came to see us previously, they said that they would like to monitor outcomes and how the portrayal can be analysed and assessed, and I look forward to questioning them on that in future.So, we need to be asking of them: how will the BBC go about this new task? Will it make itself more accountable to its audiences and to this Assembly? What will they do via the new charter? How will it set up its new governance arrangements? How will it measure their outcomes? Does it aim to react to the views and concerns of its audiences in a real and fundamental way? And how will BBC Wales ensure that its audiences are protected from any potential adverse decision making in London?This week the BBC Audience Council Wales says, and I quote: ‘the BBC should be obliged to report to both the public in Wales and the National Assembly for Wales on an annual basis on the way in which all its services, both Network and BBC Cymru Wales, have fulfilled the BBC Public Purposes in Wales during the preceding year.’This is something that I and other AMs have called for time and again for quite some time, and I'm sure we'll be doing it now in future. So, I'm hoping for a renewed focus from BBC Wales management and that this will lead to new innovations.It has been suggested to me that there should be, potentially, something like a Welsh ‘The One Show’, or perhaps it could be an English equivalent of ‘Golwg 360’, because ‘Golwg 360’ has given us bespoke and unique news about Wales through the medium of Welsh. Both suggestions could increase audience participation in Welsh in public life.This is a crucial time for BBC Wales to step up. There is no doubt in my mind that the preference for London-based newspapers in Wales over an indigenous media of questionable strength played a part in the referendum outcome. The result, as we can see, is that everyone who led us into this mess has deserted the sinking ship for the rest of us to patch up, bail out and keep sailing.

Simon Thomas AC: Would you like to give way?

Bethan Sayed AC: Yes.

Simon Thomas AC: Just on the point she's making around the relationship between the press and the BBC, she knows that the BBC has said, as part of the charter process, that it's interested in supporting local press by sharing of journalism, sharing of stories and so forth. Is that something that she has looked at with—? The new committee has only just started, I know, but is that something that’s of interest to the committee or of interest more widely, and has she got any views on how that might be taken forward now, particularly given the fact that we’re losing journalists from this place, for example, that are covering politics in Wales?

Bethan Sayed AC: I obviously don’t want to be speaking as some sort of dictator at the moment; we’re going to be talking as a committee. I’m sure people wouldn’t want to think that I would just tell everybody now what we’re going to be doing as a committee, but it’s something that—well, you know, power could go to my head—. It’s something we will be considering as a committee together. Because, of course, this was something that I read in the BBC consultation before this Assembly term. What I am concerned about, however, is the resources of the BBC then being shared too thinly, and whether the BBC could cope with that, and whether then it would be an excuse for some media organisations who I won’t name to then remove services because they say, ‘Well, the BBC are filling the gap there, so we don’t need to be there anymore’. [Interruption.] Okay.

Simon Thomas AC: Just on that point, for information, when I raised this matter, the matter of the ‘Daily Post’ journalist here, the response from the ‘Daily Post’ was, ‘Oh, we’re looking to share with the BBC’.

Bethan Sayed AC: Well, you’ve proved that point exactly, then.Nid oeddwn i eisiau gorffen heb sôn am S4C yn y funud sydd gyda fi i orffen. Rhaid hefyd sôn am y ffaith eu bod nhw eisiau bod yn rhan o siartr y BBC a’u bod nhw’n credu y dylai fod cymal yn y siartr newydd yn sôn am eu hannibyniaeth o ran gweithredu ac yn sôn am yr hyn y maen nhw yn ei wneud. Yn ôl beth rwy’n clywed gan S4C, efallai nad yw Llywodraeth San Steffan 100 y cant o blaid hyn, ond os ydy S4C yn mynd, am y tymor byr o leiaf, i gael ei ariannu gan y ffi drwydded, pam nad ydyn nhw’n cael S4C fel rhan o’r siartr newydd honno? Rwy’n credu ei bod yn bwysig i sefydlu beth yw ei statws yn y dyfodol, beth yw cynllun gwaith S4C i’r dyfodol, ac efallai bod y Gweinidog yn cael ateb ar hyn, neu’n gallu siarad gyda S4C a DCMS am sefyllfa strategol S4C i’r dyfodol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod nhw’n cael y gefnogaeth y maen nhw’n ei haeddu. Diolch yn fawr.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Can I pay tribute to Bethan Jenkins for the interest she’s shown in this area over recent years? I’m very pleased that this Assembly has now established a committee with communication specifically within its remit, and I’m very pleased to be serving on it, and look forward to serving with her.As the motion notes, in the last 10 years the amount of money invested in making programmes for Wales in English has been cut by a quarter, as has the number of hours broadcast. At a time when Wales as a nation has never been more clearly defined, the sources of information for debate and scrutiny about our country are drying up. This is serious. The director general of the BBC, Tony Hall, has acknowledged that this is an unsustainable situation. Two years ago, in April 2014, I attended his speech at the Pierhead when he conceded that there are some aspects of national life in Wales that are not sufficiently captured by the BBC, including comedy, entertainment and culture. This, he said, inhibited our creative potential and our ability to harness our diverse talents. Fast forward two years and Tony Hall has done nothing to remedy those deficiencies he identified. On 12 May this year he wrote to the First Minister to let him know how he was getting on, and again he identified deficiencies, that, as he put it, the full diversity of the UK’s cultures and communities are not properly reflected on the BBC—these are big statements for a director general to make—and that funding for English-language content made in Wales has dropped to, quote, ‘unsustainable levels’. But, still, no detail on how this will be remedied. Now, let’s put this into context. Senior BBC executives have form. Six years ago, Joanna Bennett, then director of vision—a title straight out of ‘W1A’—said that the Roath Lock drama village would deliver a‘creative benefit in terms of the voices we hear, the stories we tell, the pictures we paint’.Beautifully crafted words—seductive empathy. But, as this week’s valedictory report from the Audience Council Wales shows, six years on, these are hollow words. Six years on, the audience council says, this week, that there is a:‘Paucity of portrayal of Wales in Network TV and Radio output’,particularly in terms of drama and comedy. Indeed, it says that hardly any regional drama and comedy programmes have been produced in Wales in the last year. Last month, two thirds of the Members of this National Assembly wrote to Lord Hall to call on him to follow through his words with actions. His response? Last week, he dropped the directors of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland from the corporation’s executive team. A reversal of the decision to give them seats at the top table only in 2008, which was at the time—I quote—designed to‘bring together the nations and regions of the UK.’Does he think we’re daft? As the BBC never tire of telling us, Welsh audiences are their most loyal. The Beeb matters to us, but BBC executives are not doing a convincing job of showing that Wales matters to them. They are taking us for granted. The BBC management has so far shown itself tone deaf to the changing shape of the UK. There needs to be a strong Welsh voice on the new BBC board; an independent voice not appointed by the UK Government, as their White Paper suggests, and the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee sadly and unwisely endorsed, but, as the IWA’s respected media policy group recommends today, through the normal public appointments process, with the names submitted to the Welsh Government for approval and, I would add, subject to pre-appointment scrutiny by the Assembly’s new Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. This is, as they have said, an unsustainable situation. As they have said, the BBC matters to Wales disproportionately. They acknowledge that, but words are no longer enough. Diolch.

Russell George AC: I’m pleased to take part in this co-sponsored debate today regarding the BBC’s role in Wales as a broadcaster, which has a unique role in reflecting the lives of the people of Wales both in English and Welsh on television, radio and online. I sound a bit like a radio jingle saying that. I do very much agree with the words of Bethan Jenkins and Lee Waters today. I’m very pleased that we have a committee set up dedicated to broadcasting and I’m delighted to have seen that agreement reached. Although I’m not on the committee, I’ll take a great interest in the committee’s work. I’d like to focus my contribution on the way in which the BBC, as Wales’s only public service broadcaster, has a role in not only bringing audiences across the UK together, but in reflecting the diversity of Wales to itself and to the rest of the country. Yesterday, the BBC Audience Council Wales published its annual review, which summed up the challenges confronting the broadcaster. On the one hand, the BBC makes a significant contribution to Wales’s network production through programmes, as Bethan’s mentioned, such as ‘Doctor Who’, ‘Casualty’, ‘War and Peace’ and ‘Sherlock’; all award-winning programmes I think we should be immensely proud of. But it’s clear that network production should not be a substitute for programming made specifically for viewers in Wales, especially in the context of increased devolution, a weak paper press, a weak commercial radio sector and generally a reduction in plurality of viewpoint.Given the BBC’s dominance in Wales and the unsustainable—I agree with Lee Waters—the 25 per cent cut in funding for English-language programmes for Wales over the last decade, to which Lord Hall, as has been alluded, has previously referred, it has the potential to have, or is having, a disproportionate impact on Wales given the lack of plurality compared to other areas of the UK such as London, which has a large amount of media sources and news and non-news programming.The audience council also recognised that the BBC must do more to reflect modern Wales and the lives of its people in the next charter period. It must do more to address the lack of portrayal of contemporary Wales on network tv and radio output and in non-news tv programming such as drama and, in particular, comedy as well.It must be acknowledged that BBC journalism has improved significantly since the publication of the King report, recognising that the different nations of the UK and the way in which non-news programming has reflected all parts of the UK has been, I think, sometimes lacking. But, listening to Radio 2 news last week, when I was in the car, I could hear reporting on Wales’s football success, and it was all a very positive news story, but it was done as if Wales was a third party—it was worded in that way. The news reporter worded it in that sense. If it had been the other way around, it would have been worded very differently. Indeed, the commitment of a commissioning editor responsible for television drama in each nation, with portrayal objectives, is, I think, a positive step in ensuring that all network programming accurately reflects the cultural diversity of all the nations of the UK.It is encouraging that the BBC has made an explicit commitment to adopt the recommendations, including a stronger voice for Wales in the new unitary board, and a national licence for Wales, which would underpin the accountability for services provided in each nation. The corporation’s recent proposals to spend proportionately more on dedicated services in each nation and to spend more on English-language programming in Wales is, of course, welcome, but I fully agree with the views of Lee Waters and Bethan Jenkins that words are not enough. There needs to be action, and there needs to be a concrete financial commitment.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The licence fee is not perfect, but it’s better than anything else that anybody else has proposed, because it’s absolutely vital that the BBC remains independent of government of all kinds, because one of its key roles is to hold politicians and Government to account, and it cannot be fettered by the idea that, because the BBC is robust in uncovering things that are untoward, they might get their licence fee slashed. In recent times, there have been lots of risks of that happening. I think that it’s underplayed just how important the BBC is as an institution in our public life. Professor Brian Cox, who has done more for popular understanding of science than perhaps anybody else in recent memory, described the BBC as a public institution first, and a media company second, and I completely agree with that. We have to understand that those three letters—BBC—are probably the best recognised logo anywhere in the world, and we should dismantle it at our risk. They may not be as effective at selling the Wales brand as getting into the semi-finals of a major sporting competition, but there’s no doubt that the way in which the BBC both projects Wales to the wider world and projects back onto our own understanding of our own Welshness is seriously important. I take issue with Bethan Jenkins on one issue, which is that we cannot explain the Brexit vote based on the fact that all the newspapers were published in London, because obviously London, in the main, voted to remain. I think it’s much more complicated than that, but it’s certainly the case that, because the majority of newspapers—and there’s a declining readership of newspapers—are produced in London, the coverage of Wales is miniscule and extremely impoverished. So, that is why it is doubly important that we have a very strong broadcasting element in Wales in order to enable people to understand the world that we live in and the politics that we operate in. We have to recall that, in the days before the Broadcasting Act 1990, the ITV companies, too, were obliged to have regional content, and that helped reinforce the vigour and rigour with which the BBC undertook its obligations. Since the disappearance of the regional ITV companies under Mrs Thatcher’s slashing, really, we’ve got an entirely impoverished ITV regionally, and it has enabled this withering on the vine of the BBC radio and television coverage. It’s almost surprising that they manage to do as much as they do with the little that they have, but it’s absolutely vital to the public discourse about what it is that makes up our public realm that we do have radio and television, because with 25 per cent of our population functionally illiterate, that is the way the majority of people receive their information and their understanding of the world. And it is extremely dangerous when we go out campaigning and we listen to people telling us, ‘We’re not voting Labour any longer because of the cuts you’ve made to the disabled’. It takes your breath away, but that is the level of misunderstanding about what is going on in the world, and who is making decisions on people’s behalf, that it got us to where we were on the referendum. There was an excellent website provided by the BBC to try and deconstruct the claims and counterclaims of the ‘leave’ and ‘remain’ teams, but I very much doubt whether most people who were struggling to understand what this complicated referendum was about ever got there, and it would have been so much better if we had addressed some of the counterintuitive inspirations for why people were voting ‘leave’, which were mainly from people who lived in areas where there were very few immigrants, and yet people were inspired to vote ‘leave’ on the grounds that it was going to put a stop to immigration. There would have been plenty of programmes that could have explored that contradiction, and might have enabled people to have a better understanding of what was at stake. But I think we have to go back to the fact that the Reithian role for the BBC to inform, educate and entertain has to be kept as one, and we cannot have the BBC fragmented into only doing serious programmes and not doing popular ones. So, I think it’s absolutely vital that this new board is, in the main, done by a public appointments process. I understand that the Government will need to appoint the chair, but the rest of the board, including the representative for Wales, need to be appointed by the public appointments process.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion. I rise as a former member of staff of the BBC, and I have direct experience of working in this area in Wales. I know that BBC Wales itself is very eager to make programmes about and for Wales, but BBC Wales is very small, of course, within the wider regime of the BBC throughout the UK. We hear very often the right words being said by the heads of the BBC in London, and the same is true this time with the promise of additional funding for English-language programmes for audiences in Wales. But words are one thing, and action is another. The next thing then is to see the genuine effect of that action being taken.I don’t doubt that the BBC will keep to its word in giving additional funding for English-language programmes in Wales. We don’t know how much funding there this, and we also have to remember that that additional funding will come at a time when there will be an expectation for the BBC to make significant savings. So, we can’t allow that funding to be nothing more than mitigating funds when we’ve heard already that English-language budgets have fallen around a quarter over the past decade.To produce real programmes you need real budgets. Of course, there are savings that are possible to be made. It’s worth congratulating S4C for that—for having succeeded in making such amazing, incredible savings during a very difficult time over the past three years. They’ve succeeded to produce excellent programmes on very small budgets. I know because I have presented many of them, and it’s very good to see significant increases and progress being made in audience figures for S4C recently across different platforms in broadcasting in the UK over the past year. But a great deal of that success in producing good programmes cheaply has happened because of the commitment of excellent staff to Welsh language broadcasting but also to the broadcasting industry in Wales. But we can’t continue to expect that commitment to make up for the shortfall in funding. The pressure can’t be endless, and if we want to see programmes with good content that look good, that have the ability to draw in an audience in any language, then we need investment.Another matter is the practical barriers, of course, as budgets decrease. The number of broadcasting slots in Wales has also decreased for Welsh-based programmes. So, as well as the funding, we need the platform to broadcast those programmes. We’ve spoken in the Chamber before about BBC 2W. There were wide-ranging peak hours available in the English language in Wales. Those days have gone, but we do have to find other ways of putting on these programmes.But another matter is the concern about changes to the management board of the BBC that’s already been mentioned where—as we already heard from Lee waters—Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were represented on that upper level of management. It’s a retrograde step that we only have one controller for the nations and the regions. It weakens Wales’s voice and I’m very concerned about the implications that it pushes Wales aside. There’s no doubt about that.Now, the BBC has a name, unfortunately, for being a body where the centre is king. Yes, of course, a great deal of drama is produced in Cardiff. There has been growth in the presence of the BBC in Manchester, but that’s not all that’s important. The BBC has to develop a much more devolved attitude, respecting independence within these islands and empowering the nations, the centre sharing drama with Cardiff. That’s an economic factor that’s to be welcomed, of course, but we need something more than that. I’m looking for something more where the BBC empowers BBC Cymru Wales so that it can serve its audiences.I do wish the new committee well. It has communication as part of its title. It has very difficult and important work to be done where broadcasting hasn’t been devolved. But we here—to conclude—need to reflect the interests and the views of the people who have elected us that the BBC should be able to reach its potential of being the real national broadcaster of Wales because, at present, despite the talent and the commitment of excellent staff, it’s falling short.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I just want to contribute very briefly to today’s individual Member debate, a debate that brings forward a number of key issues that relate to broadcasting in Wales, and focus on one aspect of the motion that the National Assembly for Wales‘Believes BBC Wales has a vital role to play in reflecting the lives, aspirations and challenges of the people of Wales.’When we speak of reflecting the lives, aspirations and challenges of the people of Wales, this must be all the people of Wales regardless of where we live or work. Unfortunately, time and time again on the doorstep and in the community in Delyn, people in Delyn have raised concerns with me that the news output of our public service broadcaster seems all too often to focus on events and people within a restrictive radius of our capital city. Whilst I recognise there might be constraints on resources, many of my constituents quite rightly believe that the BBC has a democratic duty not just to achieve political balance in their output but also better geographical balance as well. On a positive note, as colleagues have alluded to, we can be proud of the BBC Wales brand exporting excellence throughout the world. I know, from a north Wales perspective, we have moved on from the days when, in the house I grew up in, upstairs you might have got BBC Wales and downstairs you got ‘BBC North West Tonight’. That’s largely thanks to the opportunities that have come through with the advent of digital television. But, clearly, more remains to be done to make sure our BBC reaches out across our country and is both reflected and relevant to our diverse nation.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Let us be in no doubt that the BBC is held in high regard by the Welsh public. In its final annual review of BBC Wales’s output, Audience Council Wales—the ACW—stated that three in five people, which is 62 per cent, in Wales, ‘feel the TV licence fee offers value for money, while more than four in five people in Wales would miss the BBC if it was not there’.That is 83 per cent. So, today I rise to speak in this debate, as I know my colleagues have, out of a shared desire to see the BBC achieve its full potential in twenty-first century, post-industrial devolution in Wales.Today, if you stand on the Members’ balcony, as I did earlier, of the Assembly, your eyes will take in the sweep of the magnificent BBC Wales studios at Porth Teigr. It is a true Welsh creative dream factory that is home to the much-loved ‘Casualty’, ‘Doctor Who’ and ‘Pobol y Cwm’ television shows that are iconic and are beamed across the UK, and, indeed, the world.In the centre of Cardiff, in the shadow of Cardiff Central station and the Principality Stadium, slowly arising is the new headquarters for BBC Wales. These are truly wonderful assets of which we in Wales and the BBC are justifiably proud. But we cannot let that blind us to the obvious and worrying deficiencies that are indeed striking and obvious, as has been outlined.As the devolution settlement in Wales matures and advances with the Wales Bill—the latest stage in that long journey—we see here in this institution the effects of UK cutbacks to funding in the BBC in Wales. The presentation, for instance, of the ‘am.pm’ programme, covering proceedings here in this Chamber, has to be shot in the Llandaf studios, where once they filmed on the fourth floor of Tŷ Hywel. To me, this is symbolic evidence that, whilst Assembly Members have urged for better representation of Wales by the BBC, financial considerations have meant actual retreat in reality.I was once a member of the British Broadcasting Council of Wales, so I will be unashamedly saying that the BBC is in my blood as well. A well-resourced and well-equipped BBC Wales is imperative and vital for our nation in the years ahead. I will also be one of its greatest advocates, but, equally, this does not mean that I will be afraid to be a critical friend. Elan Closs Stephens, BBC national trustee for Wales and Audience Council of Wales chairwoman, said in her preface to the report that the message from the Welsh audiences was very clear in that they want the BBC to do more to reflect modern Wales and the lives of its people. She said:‘As we come to the end of the current Charter, and look ahead to the BBC of the next decade, that is a challenge the BBC must meet.’The report also said that there was a—and I’ll repeat a phrase that my colleague Lee Waters has already used—‘Paucity of portrayal of Wales in Network TV and Radio output’.I’ll also mention a particular friend of mine, Max Boyce, one of the creative geniuses of our land, and it was good to see that ‘Max’s World Cup Warm-Up’, starring the Welsh entertainer himself, was the most popular English language TV series on BBC Wales, attracting 322,000 viewers. But, Max Boyce’s first experience of exposure was on the BBC’s ‘Opportunity Knocks’ in the early 1970s. Forty-five years later, what opportunities are knocking for our Welsh men and women? What stage is the BBC offering them to depict the modern Wales of now? One of my favourite and iconic Max Boyce’s songs is entitled ‘Rhondda Grey’ and I’m sure many will know it speaks of an industrial past; a coal-mining community past of a grey valley home; a boy who came home to play with paints and coloured pencils and his homework for the day, ‘We’ve got to paint the valley, mam, for Mrs Davies Art. What colour is the valley, mam, and will you help me start?’ So, today, there is a paucity of portrayal in Wales. What canvass is the BBC giving all of our communities to paint the colour of modern post-industrial devolution in Wales?My predecessor and good friend, former Assembly Member for Islwyn, Gwyn Price was proud to serve on the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee, and I’m also delighted that I now sit on that committee. Our Chair, John Griffiths will be pleased to know that I’ve also been reading up. The committee’s inquiry into the BBC charter review is required reading and it concluded in March of this year and made a series of recommendations that have already been referred to, so I will refer directly to recommendation 6, where the committee supported the consistent call from Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, that the BBC must address a funding gap in Wales. He said: ‘We support the Welsh Government’s call for the BBC to invest an additional £30 million into the services it provides for Wales. We believe that this investment is crucial for high-quality content for Wales’. He also stated in his letter to the BBC director general, Tony Hall last year:‘This would allow Welsh audiences to have a credible national television station that could provide quality content in English, including drama, comedy and also potentially network contributions’.So, for an urban valley constituency, such as mine in Islwyn, it is imperative that the English-speaking Welsh community have their lives reflected onscreen for themselves and, potentially, for an entire UK audience. We have the skills to do this. We take great pride in this place that we reflect the bilingual nature of Wales, then it is also beholden on us to ensure that our television and radio output also reflects the equal importance of the two main mother tongues of Wales. The time for warm words, as has been said, has long passed. As this committee also recommended, it is now time for the BBC to develop specific and measurable targets for the portrayal of Wales in its network programming. Now is the time to decentralise commissioning, as has been stated, to ensure that network commissioners for the nations are based in those very nations. And now is the time that the BBC reports annually to this Assembly on its output and operations that are relevant to Wales.Finally, the BBC Wales website proudly proclaims that the BBC has provided a mirror held up to society in Wales on radio, television and on a variety of digital platforms. So, let us collectively make sure that this mirror provides a true reflection, that it is sparkling and available to all of our communities, which make up the wonderful tapestry of Welsh life. So, therefore, I do support this motion. Diolch.

Julie Morgan AC: I’m very pleased to support this motion and speak in this very important debate, because I think the BBC plays an absolutely vital role in our country, and it is absolutely essential the BBC communicates with the public and gives all the information and the issues about policies and developments here in the Assembly. Both tv and radio have a very important role to play in that. With the Assembly now in its fifth term, I still get questions on the doorstep—‘Oh, do you deal with health, and isn’t it dreadful about the junior doctors’ strike? What are you doing about it?’—illustrating what others have said: that there isn’t the knowledge amongst the public about what is actually happening in Wales and what is happening in this Assembly. I think the BBC, as a public service broadcaster, has a duty to extend its reach to the 40 per cent of people, I believe, who watch programmes where there is no Welsh news or Welsh context. I see that as one of the prime objectives that the BBC should have, and, certainly, we have had a commitment to that, but we want to see it happen.I also think that this did have an effect in the EU referendum: that those people, that 40 per cent of the public in Wales who watch programmes with no Welsh context, did not have the information about how the EU has particularly benefited Wales. I do think that has an effect.The other points I wanted to make—Bethan Jenkins, I think, raised the important point about the partnership between S4C and the BBC, and whether S4C should have a stake in the charter, and I think she asked the Minister to respond to that. I want to use the opportunity of this debate to pay tribute, as Rhun ap Iorwerth did, to the commitment to the Welsh language broadcasting of the staff of S4C, but also to express my regret that S4C is soon to be leaving its base in Llanishen, where I’ve had contact with them for many years, moving out of Cardiff. I do regret that very much, but, of course, some of the S4C staff will be moving to the new BBC building where there will be joint transmitting. So, that, in fact, will save a lot of money, but I do regret that they’re moving.The other point I wanted to make was—I know Jenny Rathbone talked about the public appointments process. Well, I just want to say: why shouldn’t the chair be appointed by a public appointments process? Because a chair that is appointed by the Government—can that chair ever be totally independent? I just think that is something that we should look at.Finally, I wanted to talk about the context of the general weak media in Wales, which most of the speakers have raised, and how important it is the BBC, other broadcasters and the print media do not, as it stands, provide a plurality of cover in Wales. If you look at the print media, dominated by Trinity Mirror, it’s been actually decimated by job cuts going back over more than a decade. I think we probably all know that Media Wales moved into its new building, I think it was nearly 10 years ago—I’m sure many of us have been in there—and it occupied five floors of that six-storey building, and it’s now on just one floor, which shows the reduction in the number of journalists working on the national newspaper for Wales and on the ‘South Wales Echo’. Of course, local offices for the ‘Echo’ and ‘Western Mail’ in Neath, Ebbw Vale, Merthyr Tydfil and Pontypridd have also closed, so the newspapers are not close to their communities as they have been in the past. So, I think that is a matter of great regret, and we know how few journalists are actually here to report on what’s actually happening here in the Senedd and informing the public across Wales. They are spread so thinly to do a real, proper job scrutinising what we do here. Do we ever really feel that those journalists are actually calling us to account? I don’t think there’s the strength there in all the media. Of course, we’ve noted here in this Chamber the fact that, in north Wales, the ‘Daily Post’ is losing its Senedd correspondent. I should think it’s only a matter of time before ‘Wales Online’ and the ‘Western Mail’ may follow suit. So, I think it is, you know, a fairly grim picture in terms of the media in Wales. So, I think it’s absolutely essential that the BBC follows what it says and what its intent is, and makes sure that it does increase the amount of money and the effort it puts in to Wales.

I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. I think we’ve enjoyed a very rich debate this afternoon, discussing not only the BBC itself, but also the contribution it makes to public life and its contribution to the culture of Wales and the United Kingdom. I should start my remarks by welcoming Bethan to her role as Chair of the committee. You certainly succeeded where I failed. I very much support—. [Interruption.] [Laughter.] I will finish the sentence. I very much welcome the news that the Assembly is to create a committee—a permanent committee on this occasion—that will look at these matters. I think it’s a very timely thing to do, and I think it will soon become very important, and a committee that will speak with authority, not only on behalf of this place but of the people of Wales as well. I think the voice that we have heard this afternoon from all sides of the Chamber—and it’s good to see unanimous support for these matters on all sides of the Chamber—will be heard more strongly as a consequence of the Assembly itself having this ability to take these decisions. So, it’s something that the Government welcomes very much, and also the thoughtful way in which Members have structured their contributions. Can I say, first and foremost, that it’s important that the BBC does recognise that if it is to deliver on the promises that it makes—and I think Lee Waters explained a number of promises over a number of years that I and others have heard—it needs to have a structure that will deliver on those promises? That means structures of management, governance and accountability that all ensure that the voice of Wales is heard. I share Members’ concerns about the recent structural changes to the board of management of the BBC—the executive board—and I look forward to the BBC explaining how that will strengthen Wales’s voice, how that will ensure that Wales’s voice is heard when all decisions are taken, and how that ensures that Wales is a part of all the decisions taken by the executive board of the BBC. I will expect the BBC, in giving us this explanation, to ensure that the voice of Wales is always heard wherever these decisions are taken.The points that have been made by different Members at different times all relate to a culture within the BBC—and I think that Rhun ap Iorwerth explained this very well—where there is not simply a metropolitan bias in terms of management decisions, but in terms of the thinking and the culture behind those decisions, which is rooted not in the needs of the United Kingdom as a whole, but rooted in the comfortable thoughts and prejudices sometimes of people taking those decisions. That is something that needs to be challenged. I can assure all Members that the Welsh Government is not only engaged in the process of charter renewal, but is ensuring that the voice of Wales is heard in terms of those decisions.I want to respond to the debate this afternoon by looking at some of the matters that Members have raised. Let me first of all start with that of funding and resources. It’s absolutely correct that we’ve seen BBC investment in Wales reduced at a time when its investment in Scotland, Northern Ireland and key English regions has increased. This is unacceptable, and it’s unacceptable not only that those decisions were taken, it’s unacceptable that the governance and accountability structures enabled and allowed those decisions to be taken, and what we need in the future are structures of accountability that will not allow this situation to arise again. It is very, very clear that the BBC needs to invest additional funding into the services it provides for Wales, and I agree very much with the points that Lee Waters has said. I have no interest in receiving further letters or hearing further speeches without a commitment to additional resources to deliver the services that the BBC themselves have said that Wales needs and deserves, and I look forward to hearing the BBC’s proposals on that.And when we talk about resources and funding, we are talking about net resources and net funding. We are not interested in resources being given with one hand, being told that we’re going to have these additional funds in order to make additional programmes, to provide additional services, and then be told on the other hand that efficiency savings mean that half of those resources are not actually going to arrive into the BBC in Wales. So, we are looking for a real commitment, and not a commitment that passes muster in a press release, and we will be ensuring that that happens. And, at the same time, we have heard on many occasions that Lord Hall has made commitments to improve the BBC’s portrayal of Wales on network television and to ensure that we have the programme making here in Wales that we would anticipate and expect.Let me also say this: we know that there are changes being made to the way that the BBC is structuring studios and programme-making divisions. Those matters are rightly and properly a matter for the BBC. However, it is right and proper that we also hold the BBC to account in ensuring that that does not lead to a reduction in programme making for the network from Wales and does not lead to a reduction in studio facilities in Wales. It is a matter for the BBC management how they structure and how they manage the organisation, and it is right and proper that management have the authority to do that, but we need to ensure that the BBC’s structures ensure that its commitments are delivered for all parts of the United Kingdom. And, in doing so, I refer again to Rhun ap Iorwerth’s comments about the levels of authority being provided to the director of BBC Wales. It is absolutely essential that the director of BBC Wales does have the levels of power and responsibility to deliver a coherent service across all the different services available to the BBC in Wales, and that means levels of authority over all of the scheduling and production and commissioning of programmes. That is certainly something that I and, I think, many others will be looking for.In terms of the accountability, I agree with what has been said by Members this afternoon, that accountability of the BBC should rest here at the National Assembly and not simply in Government. I’m an old-fashioned type, sometimes, and I do believe that a public service broadcaster is different to a state broadcaster and that a public service broadcaster should be accountable to this place, to the parliamentary body, and not simply to Government and to a Minister. I agree very much with what Julie Morgan said about the appointment of members of the BBC unitary board, and I would certainly want to see that endorsed in some way or done through a public process through this place, and not simply through Government and decisions taken by Ministers.In terms of where we go from here—and I’m aware that time is moving on, Presiding Officer—I met with Rhodri Talfan Davies yesterday to discuss the latest developments in terms of the restructuring of the BBC and charter renewal. I also met with the chair and chief executive of S4C last week to discuss the latest developments in relation to the charter and the forthcoming review of S4C, which is due in 2017. I can assure Members that we will continue to be fully engaged with all of these processes. My officials have continued to hold regular meetings with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and other devolved administrations to discuss the charter review, and these meetings will continue over the summer. I can say that there’s been positive progress on a number of issues, but we’re still aware that there are points to be resolved. I will be meeting, I hope, with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport next week to discuss broadcasting. I wrote to the Secretary of State earlier with a transcript of the oral statement I made here some weeks ago and the subsequent contributions of Members. I’ve highlighted the importance of the cross-party agreement in the Assembly on the majority of broadcasting issues, and I can assure Members that, in my meeting next week, I will also reflect upon the points that have been raised by Members here today.Given events in Westminster at present, we are unsure whether the UK Government will be in a position to go ahead with the publication of a draft charter before summer recess, but even if it does not, we would expect that draft charter to be published very quickly after Parliament returns in the autumn. I will seek to schedule a debate here in the National Assembly in September to give all Members an opportunity to have a more detailed discussion on the content of the draft charter. I hope I can reassure Members that I will continue to remain engaged fully in these matters, both in terms of the debates and the discussions with the BBC itself, and also the DCMS, to ensure that the voice of Wales is heard at all times. I look forward to the work of the committee that is being established here. I look forward to the work of the committee speaking for the National Assembly and speaking for Wales. I hope that the consensus that we have in the Chamber today on all these issues is one that will remain with us as we go through this period of charter renewal. Thank you very much.

I call on Jeremy Miles to reply to the debate.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity of winding up this important, and, as the Minister said, rich debate. Part of the reason why it is so important is, as Bethan Jenkins outlined in her opening remarks, the value that we attach to the BBC as an asset, a national asset, for us in here in Wales and across the UK generally. Jenny Rathbone referred to the strength of the BBC brand, and I think that brings with it a set of values that we would all wish to endorse here, I am sure, in this Chamber. I’m pleased to be a member of the committee that Bethan Jenkins has, I can confirm, managed to chair in a very undictatorial way, as you said, so far. So, I look forward to further discussions as part of that committee.The debate goes to the heart of our sense of ourselves as a nation and how we see ourselves reflected back at us in the media. That’s another reason why it’s so important. There’s also the issue of the economic impact of the BBC within Wales. Rhianon Passmore talked about the property investments in Wales, which are substantial, and Russell George spoke about the scale of network production in Wales, but neither of those meets the challenge that we’re trying to address in this debate today. That challenge is the question of investment in programming that reflects Wales back at us. Rhianon spoke about the £30 million a year shortfall that the First Minister has identified, and it’s worth, in terms of scale, bearing in mind that, in 2013, the BBC executive board wrote off a project that it recognised had wasted £98 million over the course of three years, which neatly equates, broadly, to what English-language programming in Wales could frankly do with. That’s a result, as Lee Waters pointed out, of a cut by a quarter in the budget over the last 10 years. Lee, Bethan and many speakers spoke about what is a really tiresome gap between the language that the BBC is prepared to concede on this and the reality of the gap in the funding. And I reflect what the Minister said about not wanting to receive any more letters that acknowledge the scale of the gap without suggesting a solution to it. Rhun ap Iorwerth said that to make real programmes you need real budgets, which really takes us to the question of the genre mix, which suffers as a consequence of this lack of investment. News is good and is popular, but we also need drama, comedy, entertainment and culture programmes, which, as Lee said, were not sufficiently captured by the current settlement. Jenny Rathbone spoke about the Reithian values of Wales-specific documentary, and my favourite of all the comments in this area was Rhianon Passmore’s reference to my constituent Max Boyce. I’m sure he will have heard those comments very pleasingly.This brings us back to the question of not just variety and value for money but representation and the points of reference of Welsh culture and how our perspective is represented, I guess, on television. Russell George spoke of the importance of television reflecting the diversity of modern Wales. Many speakers spoke about the concern about the BBC retreating from that role of representing not just us to ourselves but us to the world, beyond the shores of the UK, which is a very important aspect of this debate.Julie Morgan and others put it in the context of the limited print media that we have in Wales, and that underlines the importance of a vibrant and well-funded English-language programming service. The question of geography and geographic representation: Hannah Blythyn spoke about the experience on the doorsteps in Delyn of people’s concerns that representation was skewed excessively towards Cardiff. For those of us who live outside Cardiff, that’s a familiar refrain. You referred to the democratic duty to achieve a geographic balance as well as a political balance. I don’t think any of us in this Chamber would disagree with that.Many speakers focused on the question of accountability and governance, which is at the heart of this debate. The Government White Paper, as the Minister indicated, has very little to say, in fact, about accountability to audiences in Wales. Many speakers spoke about the contribution the IWA has made today specifically addressing that point. More than one speaker lamented the dropping of the individual nations’ directors from the executive team, and both Bethan Jenkins and Lee Waters in particular called for a strong Welsh voice on the BBC board, appointed independently of Government.The question of our role here as an Assembly has been highlighted by many speakers and Bethan Jenkins spoke about the hope and, indeed, I think, expectation that the committee would have the opportunity of scrutinising and no doubt interrogating the BBC executives in relation to some of the commitments that have been made. I welcome also the reference that you made to the question of S4C independence and that being reflected within the charter also.I hope I’ve done justice to the range of contributions that have been made today. Just to close, viewing of BBC One in particular is higher in Wales than in any other part of the UK, and the early evening news bulletin in particular has a higher proportion of viewers in Wales than in any other part of the UK. So, ‘Wales loves the BBC’ is the message that I take from that. It then doesn’t seem to be right in return to reciprocate that affection with a service that, in the BBC’s own admission, is unsustainably underfunded and, in the words of the Audience Council Wales, has brought BBC Wales to the cliff edge. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: UK Withdrawal from the European Union

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

The next item on the agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call on Leanne Wood to move the motion.

Motion NDM6077 Simon ThomasTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the promises made to the people of Wales by those who campaigned for the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union.2. Calls on the UK Government to ensure that such promises are fulfilled following withdrawal from the EU, including that:a) an additional £490 million a year will be made available for the Welsh NHS;b) the level of funding Wales currently receives from EU programmes will be maintained;c) the direct payment support received by Welsh farmers will be at least equal to that received through the Common Agricultural Policy; andd) the right of EU citizens at the time of Brexit to remain in the UK without fear or hindrance is guaranteed.

Motion moved.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Lywydd. I move the motion in the name of Simon Thomas and I’m happy to support the amendment, amendment 1, in the name of Jane Hutt.Our motion today comes as Theresa May becomes the new Prime Minister of the UK. She has said that she intends to implement the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. That withdrawal will occur after a sustained period of negotiations, with issues such as single-market access, immigration and the status of EU and UK citizens all up for discussion. The outgoing Prime Minister said that Wales could play a role in these negotiations. It’s vital, therefore, that we, as Wales—all of Wales—make the case for retaining as many as possible of the benefits that we currently gain from being a member of the European Union.Plaid Cymru will do whatever we can to influence the Welsh negotiating position, to unashamedly fight for Wales’s corner, and to stand up at all times for Wales’s national interests. In part, the referendum result was a product of the inequalities that have built up over many decades. The UK has the deepest regional inequality of any current EU member state. Brussels has become a scapegoat for anger and frustration, where whole sections of society feel as though they’ve lost control of their lives. Voting seems to get you nowhere in a first-past-the-post system, and, when people are elected to this institution, for example, it doesn’t have the powers that we need to fix all of the problems that our people face.I have a lot of sympathy with the perception that many in our communities feel powerless and ignored. Outgoing Prime Minister David Cameron said today that he hoped that people would see that he left behind, in his words, ‘a stronger country…and more chances to get on in life.’But that’s false, isn’t it? Firstly, the United Kingdom is not a country, it is a state, and the integrity of that state has been weakened by this referendum result. Now, the UK could lose a significant part of its territory and it could cease to exist. In terms of having more chances to get on in life, there are areas in this country, in Wales, where better job opportunities are available, but there are also areas where there’s a sense of prolonged decline and neglect despite, in many cases, those areas having qualified numerous times for EU economic development aid.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Leanne Wood AC: Sure.

Darren Millar AC: Do you accept some responsibility from your party’s perspective, given that your Deputy First Minister, who was in office for five years, did nothing to improve the prosperity of those parts of Wales to which you refer?

Leanne Wood AC: My predecessor was in office for one term, with very few economic levers, actually, to make an impact on a recession and the austerity policies that were being implemented by your party in Westminster. The areas where there are the highest numbers of people who voted to leave are the areas where there are most boarded-up shops or banks, where bus routes and community facilities have been lost, and where wages are lower than the Welsh average, and the Conservatives have to take a large amount of responsibility for that situation. Those areas that have been entitled to significant EU funds, precisely because of their relative poverty and disadvantage, are also areas with low levels of immigration; there are few opportunities to attract migrants to work, yet the perception is of an immigration problem being great. Let’s not forget that people were told that pulling out of the EU would save money. Remember that promise on that bus—£350 million per week would be available, they told us. Wales would receive £490 million per year, so the leader of the Welsh Conservatives told us. Well, we look to him now to make sure that the promise is kept, to use whatever influence that he might have within his party to make sure that that money is in place, and we will keep making this point—not because we’re desperate for handouts, but because people voted on the premise that that money would be available for their NHS and to restore the facilities that they have seen disappear as a result of the Tories’ austerity. We also expect to see an arrangement to guarantee the direct payment support to Welsh farmers. That industry is at risk if those guarantees are not there. And we want the rights of EU citizens to remain in Wales to be guaranteed too. We’ve got 500 doctors from other EU countries working in the Welsh NHS, and that’s before we even consider EU nationals working in other public services and in our private sector too.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Would she give way on that point?

Leanne Wood AC: Sure.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: To take you back to the point you made just a moment ago on farming subsidy, would she agree with me that it is not simply a debating point, it is a competitive imperative that, in this transition period going forward, not only in the Brexit negotiations but subsequently, we cannot have our farmers and rural communities at a competitive disadvantage to what is happening across Offa’s Dyke in England? So, we have to have that money guaranteed, and we have to have it here to make the choices of how we use it in Wales for the people of Wales.

Leanne Wood AC: I would agree with that 100 per cent. Of course, our farming industry is in jeopardy as things stand, and those guarantees need to be there in order to provide guarantees for that industry in the long term.EU nationals are a net financial, cultural and social benefit to our country and none of us should tire from making that point, and you will hear us make that point time and time again. Llywydd, our calls for having everything done to protect the Welsh national interest are already having an impact. Why else would the Secretary of State for Wales try to play down the need to replace our EU funding, saying that we need a wider debate about the root causes of poverty and disadvantage? Well, damn right we do. And the replacement of our EU funds is a bare minimum part of that discussion; those funds are the starting point. We also need real economic levers to be available to this Government and to this Assembly, and we must now push for a full regional policy in the UK for as long as Wales remains a part of that union.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Leanne Wood AC: Let me finish by saying that 23 June changed everything. Wales now needs strong leadership and vision to deal with the hand that we’ve been dealt, and Plaid Cymru is ready to do whatever we can to make sure that that is provided.

Thank you. I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 1—Jane HuttAdd as new sub-point at end of motion:all funding arrangements in the post-Brexit era are predicated on a fair funding framework and a major revision of the Barnett Formula.

Amendment 1 moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Formally.

Thank you. Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I just want to endorse the comments made by Leanne Wood in opening this debate by mentioning particularly the effect on, and the need to protect, agriculture, fisheries and the environment more generally. We are in a position at present where Wales, Welsh farmers and rural Wales receive something in the region of £250 million per annum in direct payments to farmers, and, in addition to that, there is some €655 million—the value of the euro, of course, does mean that the pounds are less at the moment—for the rural development programme within the common agricultural policy for the period up to 2020. Of course, if the new Prime Minister does want to implement Brexit in the way that she has suggested, then Wales, along with the rest of the UK, will leave that subsidy system before the end of that period. Therefore, it is important that we do take action post haste in order to understand the impact of this on our agriculture and our environmental sectors and make preparations for it.Within the European Union, as we have been members for so long, the framework for animal welfare, animal health, and also the framework for environmental policy and legislation have all been made within the EU. Although we have almost universally—certainly in the Assembly, I think—been supportive of that legislation, it stems from Europe, and that’s the basis on which we have legislated. Therefore, it’s very important that the pledges on maintaining direct subsidies at the current level are kept. It’s important that that happens in the context of the fact that there is a great deal of uncertainty within the market at the moment, and, of course, uncertainty undermines the market.Something in the region of 80 per cent to 90 per cent of farm income in Wales is derived from direct payments. Now, perhaps that isn’t a situation that one would want to see in the long term in any case, but the fact is that we have to move from that situation in just two years now, and that is a far swifter process than we had anticipated. The prices for Welsh produce are very low, although there has been some improvement in the dairy sector.So, it is true to say that withdrawing from the European Union does mean that we can draw up policies for agricultural support, food production support, and fisheries and environmental support anew. That’s true, but Plaid Cymru is of the view that we shouldn’t give up, in any way, on the progress that has been made, particularly in the areas of agriculture and the environment, over the past 40 years. So, we want to ensure that the transfer happens and ensures that the current agricultural support and legislation continue without any break.Rwy’n credu ei bod yn bwysig tanlinellu hefyd fod y cymorth, a’r gefnogaeth barhaus, i amaethyddiaeth Cymru wedi ei gadarnhau cynifer o weithiau yn ystod y refferendwm blaenorol hwn. Er enghraifft, dywedodd David Davies AS wrth BBC Radio Wales fod yn rhaid i ni yn gyntaf ollsicrhau bod yr arian a oedd yn mynd i mewn i gronfeydd strwythurol a’r PAC yn parhau.Dywedodd George Eustice, sef Gweinidog ffermio y DU ond un a oedd yn ymgyrchu dros adael, y byddai Cymru yn cael ‘llawn cymaint o gymorth’ ag yr oeddem yn ei gael ar y pryd, a dywedodd, pe baem yn gadael—ac fe wnaethom, wrth gwrs—y gallai hyn olygu mwy o arian a gwell cefnogaeth i ffermwyr Cymru:os ydym yn pleidleisio dros adael... bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn parhau i roi o leiaf cymaint i ffermwyr Cymru a’r amgylchedd... ag y maent yn ei gael yn awr.Dyna oedd addewid y Llywodraeth gyfredol sy’n parhau. Dywedodd arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr—y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig—mewn ymateb i’r dyfyniad penodol hwnnw:Erbyn hyn mae gennym warant gadarn y byddai ffermwyr Cymru yn parhau i gael o leiaf yr un faint o ran cymorth.Felly, addewid gan Lywodraeth y DU, ‘gwarant gadarn’ gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig, ac mae’n rhaid i ni sicrhau nad oes dim yn cael ei naddu, pan fydd y DU yn gadael yr UE, oddi ar y cymorth y bydd ffermwyr yn ei gael ac y bydd ein hamgylchedd yn ei gael a’r cymorth y bydd ein cymunedau gwledig yn ei gael. Dyna pam ei bod mor drist gweld bod Ian Lucas, cydweithiwr Llafur y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am yr amgylchedd yn y lle hwn, wedi gofyn heddiw yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin i’r Gweinidog Gwladol yn Swyddfa Cymru, Guto Bebb—gofynnodd:A yw’r Gweinidog yn cytuno bod gadael yr UE yn cynnig cyfle euraidd i asesu lefel y cymhorthdal ​​a delir i ffermio yng Nghymru i weld a oes modd gwario’r arian yn fwy effeithiol ac effeithlon mewn meysydd eraill?Felly, mae’r Blaid Lafur yn San Steffan—pa Blaid Lafur, nid wyf yn gwybod gan fod cymaint ohonynt y dyddiau hyn—mae’r Blaid Lafur yn San Steffan yn fwriadol, eisoes, yn cwestiynu a defnyddio gadael yr UE fel cyfle i dorri cymorth i ffermwyr Cymru. Rwy’n credu bod hynny’n warthus ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog, wrth ymateb i’r ddadl hon, yn datgysylltu ei hun oddi wrth y sylwadau hynny.

Hefin David AC: During the Senedd debate on the EU a few weeks ago, Dafydd Elis-Thomas said that, if Wales voted to leave, it would be a consequence of the failure of the political class as a whole, and I reported to this Chamber in that debate the distance the people of Caerphilly felt, both literally and figuratively, from decision makers in the European Union. But today I feel the breadth of this perceived distance is wider with Westminster and sometimes this Parliament of Wales and every Member here also struggling to act as a bridge between the people of our constituencies and the decisions taken in their names. Yet, all of us want to represent our constituents and our communities and almost all of us are of our communities. If we are to do our work then we must be able to speak frankly without too much concern about consequent party politics. I think sometimes we need to find a balance between blaming each other for the outcomes that have happened as a result of policies and relevant debating points and scrutiny, and I think sometimes we don’t get that balance right. I said several times during the Assembly election campaign and during the referendum campaign that I would engage with my principal challengers, Plaid Cymru, without hesitation if it made a difference to the lives of the people I represent, and I think Steffan Lewis can testify to that. Indeed, I’ve held constructive conversations with members of that party and I intend to continue to do so.One of the consequences of the EU referendum may give us an opportunity to bridge that political divide further that was laid so bare by the campaign. The UK cross-party Constitution Reform Group, of which I believe our own David Melding is a member, proposes a new Act of union that gives each nation and region full sovereignty over their own affairs—a federated UK reimagined and re-empowered. We should look upon these ideas with interest.In the meantime, and by the same token as the leader of the opposition has said, the new Prime Minister must work with our elected Government here to ensure that Wales does not lose out by our leaving the European Union. A distinctive Welsh exit plan and our economic strategy must be integral to the negotiations to leave the European Union. This motion today sets some vital red lines in these negotiations and my friend the leader of the house’s amendments bolsters that with a clear demand for fairer funding.But, I would say, at the referendum vote count in Caerphilly I was struck by the wild celebrations of UKIP members, which I didn’t think was appropriate given the fact that UKIP clearly had no plan as to what would happen next. Nigel Farage said the pledge to guarantee £350 million a week for the NHS was one of the mistakes made by the ‘leave’ campaign, yet he and the rest of the UKIP members were silent about this absurd pledge during the campaign. I suspect that, actually, it was because they hadn’t thought that far ahead and didn’t really expect to win the referendum.But, people all over Wales care passionately about our NHS and what we now need is clarity over the funding arrangements, as outlined in the motion and as promised by members of the UK Government. Election campaigns can be life-enhancing, engaging experiences and a chance to make the case to the country, but it appears to me that the referendum campaign was none of those things. Today, we feel the divisive effects on our nation. And I’m reflecting on what Leanne Wood said about proportional representation; I’m of an open mind, the only thing that concerns me is, perhaps in 2011, if we’d had a truly proportional system to elect to this place, we may have seen BNP members elected at that point, as they were to the London Assembly. I’m not suggesting that’s something that we should rule out—proportional representation—but it’s a consequence we should bear in mind.We should all, therefore, bear in mind the concerns about hate crimes that are being perpetrated across the country in the wake of the vote. In Gwent, there was a 46 per cent increase in hate crime in the run-up to the referendum, and the Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent, my excellent predecessor as Assembly Member for Caerphilly, Jeff Cuthbert, has rightly said that racial abuse will not be tolerated by the force. I’m pleased my local authority in Caerphilly continues to engage with residents to combat hate crime and I intend to support a motion to that effect from Caerphilly councillors, in the name of councillor Roy Saralis, at full council next week, which will also be supported by Plaid Cymru. Sometimes, I think it would be better if we thought more about these things than the silly things that we try to find to divide ourselves during local election campaigns.We live in politically volatile times, but regardless of the outcome of the referendum result, we must find a way to work together on issues of common purpose. We must be able to serve our party’s core principles and our people without creating needless division and we must have a clear plan for leaving the EU that benefits Wales. That is clear in this motion and the amendment. But we must also ensure that the time ahead benefits the people of our nation, even if that means a new understanding of nationhood. That perhaps is an issue for a wider debate.

Bethan Sayed AC: I want to focus my contribution on the Welsh steel industry because, as we know, various ‘jam tomorrow’ claims were made by pro-Brexiters in the run-up to the referendum—claims that took hold with some steelworkers, it has to be said, in terms of how they voted in the referendum. So, it now falls to those who campaigned to leave the EU—those still left at the tillers of power, few though they are—to make good on those assertions. So, let’s start with a recap of those assertions: (1) that meaningful US-style tariffs on Chinese and other dumped steel will be introduced; (2) that, unencumbered by unpopular state aid rules, money can be offered to Port Talbot and other plants to assist them in becoming more competitive; and (3) that free access to the European markets can continue unchecked. It’s important to note at this point that the steel industry sees opportunities as well as challenges following Brexit. Some in the industry have told me that a weaker pound would aid competitiveness in the short and medium term, and that new trade relationships with the EU in the medium and long term, along with revised rules of support from the UK Government post-2020, could be made. Now, there are challenges—and ‘leave’ advocates must answer to these—and they include customer uncertainty, a lessened UK influence in EU policy-making, a new trade relationship with the EU—both potentially a good and bad thing, it would appear—and reduced access to research and development. This last factor puts proposals for a steel research centre in South Wales West in a partnership between Port Talbot and Swansea University’s innovation campus severely at risk.Brexit supporters have pointed, hopefully, to 500 per cent-plus tariffs imposed by the US on Chinese rebar, amongst other things. But what I’d like to hear is how that is going to be replicated by a UK Government whose MEPs not only voted against far more modest EU proposals, as did UKIP, but whose Ministers actively wrecked the plan in the Council of Ministers.When you have a Minister for industry who doesn’t believe in a strategy for industry, because of his free market ideals, then even the most optimistic ‘leave’ campaigner has to admit there’s still some more work to be done in persuading others.We know that Port Talbot’s competitive edge would be greatly improved by the construction of a new power station that would slash its energy costs whilst reducing emission levels—not that we need to worry about such pesky EU-set rules anymore, of course. The cost could be as high as £250 million. Now, is this a lot of money? Well, no; not when you compare it against the cost of losing Port Talbot, which Professor Gerry Holtham has estimated accounts for around 6 per cent of Welsh GVA. The calculations I made on the back of a napkin puts that at around £3.5 billion, give or take a few million.There are around 16,000 directly or indirectly employed at the site, or supplying or contracting to it. That’s around another £435 million. All in all, that could mean as much as £4 billion for the Welsh economy. So, we look forward to seeing the money for the new power plant coming forward pretty quickly, given that speed is of the essence. Anything else would amount to nothing less than a gross dereliction of responsibility to those people who live and work in Port Talbot.It would also be good to hear how we’ll make up the huge funding shortfall in research and development so as not to miss the kind of opportunity I outlined earlier—the only steel centre in Europe within sight of blast furnaces in Port Talbot. It sounds too good to be missed.I said last week how Wales is disproportionately reliant upon exports of iron and steel, as compared to the rest of the UK. Last year we imported £400 million-worth of iron and steel, but we exported £1 billion-worth—two and a half times as much. Considering that sum, some 69 per cent—over two thirds—goes to the European market. One third of Tata Port Talbot sales are within the EU.Steelworkers in Port Talbot and all of Wales have voted, and now they expect results. It’s time for Brexit to deliver for the Welsh steel industry so that it’s successful in future.

Mark Isherwood AC: Although many supported a ‘remain’ vote, Wales has voted to leave the EU and all views must be respected and heard. As negotiations in relation to the UK’s withdrawal from the EU progress, Wales will need strong leadership that reflects the wishes of its people and ensures the best deal for our nation in this new era. The Welsh Conservative group places a high value on access to the single market, recognising that access to markets is also a two-way process, and many EU nations depend heavily on both the Welsh and UK marketplace. The Welsh Conservative group will be resolute in ensuring the best deal for Wales in a post-Brexit UK, including in relation to funding streams. We do believe that Wales must benefit from at least as much funding as we move forward, and we will also be supporting the Welsh Government amendment.Ultimately, however, a primary aim must be to close the prosperity gap between Wales and other European nations, which has enabled Wales’s access to many EU funding streams over many years. We are committed to ensuring Welsh farming flourishes. The farming community in Wales and Welsh decision makers must now be at the centre of the development of a new support system that recognises the distinct challenges faced by farmers in Wales and provides the financial support necessary to support the industry’s long-term sustainable future. Welsh representation must have a central input as part of the negotiation process for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, where all UK nations face unique, separate challenges. The rights of all EU citizens already living legally in the UK must be protected and incidences of racist or xenophobic attacks following the referendum result deserve the strongest condemnation. Britain is one of the world’s largest economies, a global country—or state, depending on your interpretation—that already conducts more trade outside the EU than any other member state. Outside the EU, we do regain the freedom to forge trade deals while continuing to trade with European partners. Green shoots are beginning to emerge, as other countries and states start to realise the possibility of free-trade deals with the UK and its constituent nations. President Obama stated that the special relationship between the US and UK will endure, and members of the US Congress are already openly and seriously discussing the possibilities of a US-UK trade deal.India is looking forward to striking a deal. The EU’s last attempt to deal with India began nine years ago and has stalled, with no obvious prospect of resumption. But, as India’s Deputy Minister of Finance has said, the UK is going to look to build its relationships with the rest of the world. The German Federal Ministry of Finance advised the EU to enter into negotiations aimed at making the UK an associated partner country of the trade bloc, coming after German industry giants pressed their Government to strike a free-trade deal in the event of the UK leaving the EU. New Zealand First party leader Winston Peters said that a trade deal with the UK is an absolute priority. Labour Party leader Andrew Little suggested that New Zealand should draw on its long and historic relationships with the UK to ensure future trade, and Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull suggested that New Zealand and Australia could team up to negotiate a single deal with the UK. Ghana was quick out of the traps to propose a trade deal. Ghanaian Minister for Foreign Affairs Hanna Tetteh said she was working up a delegation already. In Canada, the Justin Trudeau administration said: ‘The UK and the EU are important strategic partners for Canada with whom we enjoy deep historical ties and common values. We will continue to build relations with both parties as they forge a new relationship.’While Iceland was the first country to offer a trade deal to Britain, Mexico has beaten it by already drafting a trade pact between the countries. The President of Switzerland has reached out to the UK and said, ‘We are interested and open.’ Business Secretary Sajid Javid revealed that South Korea contacted the UK Government to begin bilateral trade talks as soon as possible.As Henry Ford said: ‘Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right.’If we believe, opportunity beckons. If we don’t, failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. As the company I visited in Flintshire on Monday told me: you don’t need to be in the EU to have a future. They are switching their French production to north Wales. Speaking today, Prime Minister Theresa May referred to the need to negotiate the best deal for Britain in leaving the EU, and to forge a new role for ourselves in the world, adding: ‘Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a success of it.’Let’s do that.

Thank you very much. Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, madam deputy speaker. As the tectonic plates are shifting around us, I wonder whether this is an opportunity for a paradigm shift in our thinking as well. It is absolutely right—and there is broad consensus, clearly—that Wales should not be further impoverished by the decision made through the referendum. But I think it’s also true that, while ensuring that we receive the cash that we were promised is necessary, it’s not sufficient, is it? I mean, we achieved Objective One status in 1999. We won the lottery of European structural funds. And yet, over the period since then, what did we see? Wales’s income per capita actually fell, both relative to the UK and the EU. So, I think this is an opportunity for us to rethink our approach. I think the spirit has to be that what we are looking for—and we are looking now not to Brussels but to London—. We are not looking for charity. We are looking for help to help ourselves. Part of that is financial investment, but part of it is giving us the power, actually, to regenerate our own economy. In the new environment—. Of course, we don’t know what the final terms of the Brexit deal will be, and that will influence the powers that are available to us. But even if we are in the EEA and EFTA, you have the ability to vary VAT. Wouldn’t that be a useful power—not to have left at Westminster, but to be brought here, so that we could actually have a lower VAT rate for our tourism industry? We could look at actually boosting our construction industry through having a lower VAT rate for refurbishment of homes. We could look at corporation tax. We saw Ireland just post a 26.4 per cent increase in GDP, an all-round record, I think, in Europe, largely through inversions, as they’re called—basically, companies moving their headquarters in to Ireland because of the attractive corporation tax rates. Wouldn't it be a legitimate lever of regional policy for us to be able to attract some of those financial services companies that are in a huddle at the moment in the Square Mile and in Canary Wharf actually a bit further west and to say, ‘Well, come to Wales, actually; we can provide you with an attractive business environment’?Think what we could do in terms of other business taxes. Research and development tax credits—you know, we want to build innovative businesses. We want, actually, instead of playing catch-up, we want to play leapfrog; we want to be ahead of the curve. We could use some of these new freedoms that would be available to us, whatever the terms of the final deal, in order to create that kind of competitive advantage. The patent box was introduced by the Chancellor that gives tax breaks, basically from future income, from patented innovation. In the Netherlands, they apply that to software. Now, if we had that ability in Wales, think of what that could do to an already very, very dynamic emerging sector in terms of software start-ups in Wales. So, I think this is the kind of thinking—you know, in chaos and in crisis, it's not one that I would have chosen, but, actually, change also creates opportunities, and maybe we need to, as well as defending absolutely and holding people to account as to the promises they made and making sure that Wales is not disadvantaged financially, maybe we need to get a bit more creative as well and think about what we could do differently that would give us an edge, that would make Wales the place to be in terms of the businesses of the future. I think that with that kind of positive mindset, we can inspire our own people and our own businesses, and also attract would-be entrepreneurs and innovators into Wales as well.

Caroline Jones AC: I would also like to thank Plaid Cymru for the chance to discuss the opportunities for Welsh finances following the decision to leave the European Union. We join the other parties in calling upon the UK Government to ensure that Wales benefits from the decision to stop haemorrhaging billions of pounds a year to the EU. However, unlike some Members in the Chamber, UKIP firmly believes that Brexit offers huge opportunities for Wales. The EU doesn't generously give us billions of pounds; they simply return a small proportion of our own money. Each year, the UK gives the EU £13 billion, and we get back around £4 billion in farm subsidies and EU schemes. The UK Government must ensure that Wales is not only gets its share of moneys set aside for EU funding programmes, but also a fair share of the £9 billion it costs us to be members of the EU club.I'm not sure where Plaid got its figures from. I'm not a mathematician, but my calculation of our share of the £9 billion is £432 million, given that the population of Wales is 4.8 per cent of the UK's total, and not the £490 million quoted. While I would love to see all that money set aside for the NHS, as I am the NHS spokesman for UKIP, I realise that there are also other competing priorities. We are facing a crisis in social care, given cuts to local authority budgets in recent times. We have a shortfall in education spending in Wales. We need major infrastructure upgrades and investment. And we need to spend more on improving mental health outcomes. An additional £432 million will go a long way to addressing these problems.We have a new Prime Minister who has already stated that we must maximise the benefits of leaving the EU. She has indicated that her Government may relax her predecessor's austerity push. UKIP wish her well and we look forward to receiving her assurances that Wales will benefit from the decision to withdraw from the money pit that is the EU. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Well, it’s clear from the debate this afternoon that the impact of the decision taken on 23 June continues to be felt keenly, and that the extent of the economic, political, constitutional and social challenges are increasingly making themselves clear. To wrestle with the consequences of the referendum vote is not to contest its outcome, but nor is it to turn our back on those powerful arguments that made the case for Wales’s position in Europe. As a Government, we are now focused on doing everything within our power to mitigate any negative effects and to ensure the best possible outcome for Wales. During the referendum campaign, substantial promises were made by members of the ‘leave’ side, as Simon Thomas so well illustrated in his contribution. Many Welsh voters will have made their decisions based on those promises, and it is interesting to see that it is a shared ambition across this Chamber that those promises should be honoured, and honoured in full. A key argument used to promote the ‘leave’ side was claims about the size of the UK’s contribution to the EU budget, with those heavily publicised promises that this money would be spent on the NHS, as well as another long list of causes to which it was to be applied. Now, the Wales share of what was claimed to be £350 million a week would indeed make a huge and welcome impact. The speed with which those who stood in front of buses plastered with this claim have since distanced themselves from it has been one of the phenomena of the post-referendum period. Now, from an EU-funding perspective, the decision to leave the European Union will hit Wales hard. Wales currently benefits from in excess of £600 million per year of EU funds that support economic, social and rural development. Now, once again, clear promises were made by the ‘leave’ campaign that Wales would not lose out as a result of the UK coming out of the European Union. The First Minister has already written to the then Prime Minister asking that that guarantee—that solid guarantee that we were offered by the leader of the Conservatives here in Wales—must be honoured, and for every penny of EU funds to be replaced so that Wales does not lose out. The First Minister has called on the UK Government to ensure the continuation of funds for the period up to 2020 to be honoured as well, whether via the European Union itself or via the replacement of Treasury funding. Failure to secure replacement funding would disproportionately disadvantage Wales, and it is clear that these funds have made major positive effects, creating jobs, supporting thousands of businesses and helping people into work and training.Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, that was quite certainly the message from partners around the table at the extraordinary programme monitoring committee meeting that I chaired on Friday of last week. The private sector, public authorities, universities, the third sector, farming interests—as set out this afternoon by Huw Irranca-Davies and Simon Thomas—all were united in a call for the excellent work that they have undertaken to be continued until the natural end of this round of structural funds. That was echoed in Leanne Wood’s call for a united position in arguing Wales’s corner in the circumstances we now face. [Interruption.] Of course.

Simon Thomas AC: Just on that point, we’ve seen today Alun Cairns, for example, as the Secretary of State, argue that this is no longer about money, and we should have this big debate about what should replace structural funds, and though I’m up for learning from the fact that structural funds did not take us from the position we were in in 1999 to the position we want to be in today, can I just support what he’s just said? We want that faith to be kept to the end of the natural part of these programmes, till 2020, and I hope that the Conservative Party will make that very clear in forthcoming debates.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I absolutely agree, and I hope they do, too, because the partners who were around the table at that programme monitoring committee, who actually deliver these projects, who employ real people providing real services to people who need them so much—they’re not interested in a big debate. They are interested in knowing that the funds on which they rely will be guaranteed in the way that they have been promised. Simon Thomas is absolutely right to make that point.When the Prime Minister, in announcing his own leave decision, makes a commitment that the devolved administrations would be fully engaged within future negotiations, then we are entitled to expect just that. An offer to be fully informed of developments will not be good enough. We expect a seat at the table on the timing and terms of the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union in the way that Hefin David described. We will use that opportunity to ensure that the interests of Wales are protected, that the promises made to our citizens are kept and that Wales gets the best possible deal. Llywydd, it’s in that context that the Government has laid an amendment, which we believe strengthens still further the original motion, and I’m grateful for the indications of support for the amendment this afternoon, because a proper deal for Wales on European funding has to be based on a fair funding framework and fair funding flows into the responsibilities discharged by this National Assembly.I listened very carefully to the thoughtful analysis set out by Leanne Wood of the factors that influenced the way people voted on 23 June. Some of the things that flowed from that debate have been reflected in a very concerning way in the ways that others of our fellow citizens have been treated in the aftermath of that referendum, and this motion very properly draws attention to that. EU nationals in Wales must be assured that they can continue to live here and that they are not to be used as pawns in any negotiation. The First Minister has written directly to the UK Government asking for those assurances. We heard earlier this afternoon of a campaign that Eluned Morgan has developed to demonstrate loud and clear that EU nationals and others are not simply treated with tolerance here in Wales, but that they are welcome to be here and that the decision they have made to make their future part of our future is a decision that is hugely appreciated and recognised. That the future should be shaped, as the motion says, without fear or hindrance is exactly as we would want it to be because, in the lives of those individuals and the communities that they live in, we see the decisions that are made at a national and international level working their way out in the daily lives of the people we live alongside, and their rights and their futures need to be respected.

I call on Leanne Wood to reply to the debate.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch. I thank all Members for their contributions but, in particular, I want to thank the Members of the Plaid Cymru team: Simon Thomas, who focused on the effect of Brexit on the environment and the agricultural sector; Bethan Jenkins, who focused on our steel industry; and Adam Price, who addressed the wider economic questions arising from Brexit. And, yes, it is time for a paradigm shift in our thinking and a new economic approach.It is important to understand what happened with this vote. Most of the leave voters that I’ve spoken to, during the campaign and since the result, tell me that they did so chiefly because they wanted change, because they felt voiceless and they’re fed up with being taken for granted by an out-of-touch political establishment. I get that. I respect that.In closing, I’d like to address this question of racism. I’d like to thank the Member for Caerphilly and Mark Isherwood, and indeed the Minister, for alluding to this too. We cannot and we absolutely should not deny that the tone of the debate and the result has brought out prejudices. It has empowered those who were possibly already that way inclined to crawl out from under various stones to abuse minorities. It’s led to an increase in reported racial incidents, and we ignore that at our peril. And, it is not scaremongering to say that when the facts back it up. Issues of class and inequality were at the heart of this referendum result. The fact that people in those areas that benefit most from the EU’s structural funds voted in the greatest numbers to leave can’t really be taken as anything other than a loud protest against being squeezed—a loud shout out against poverty and against remaining at the bottom of the wealth league, despite having had access to those funds for many years. The increase in the cost of a holiday abroad or mobile phone roaming charges means very little if you haven’t got the money to afford a holiday or a mobile phone. Many people had lost hope that politics could change things, and this referendum gave them the power to land a blow on the political elite, and they took that opportunity. So, people shouldn’t be written off as uneducated, stupid, or even as acting against their own interests for voting to leave for those reasons. It’s not an irrational response to the current political situation, post banking crash, when there are so few opportunities to make your voice heard. Those voices must be heard. The promise that the UK would save money by withdrawing from the EU played out well in towns and villages where people have been left behind. People in those places were promised more money and more control. That £490 million figure that I quoted earlier on was given to us by the leader of the Conservatives—a leading Brexit campaigner in the campaign. Now, I hope that, beyond today, we can have that wider debate and that we can agree that, regardless of what side we were on in the referendum, we in Wales need to take more control and more responsibility over our own affairs. Plaid Cymru will continue to be at the forefront of making sure that we secure Wales’s future. All of us here should commit to nothing less.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you very much. We’ll defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The First World War Centenary and Supporting the Armed Forces

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

We move on, then, to item 8 on our agenda today, which is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the first world war centenary and supporting the armed forces, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM6075 Paul DaviesTo propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the centennial anniversaries of the Battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the Battle of Jutland.2. Pays tribute to those who fought in these and other battles during the First World War.3. Honours the memory of both those who lost their lives and those who were casualties of the First World War, and other armed conflicts.4. Believes the Welsh Government must provide greater support to Wales’s armed forces and veterans community during the fifth Assembly, including through:a) establishing an Armed Forces & Veterans Commissioner, prioritising their specific need;b) introducing a Veterans Card Scheme to extend privileges to former service personnel;c) increasing funding for the Veterans’ NHS Wales service, to enhance its capacity and improve its ability to help veterans in need; andd) improving data collection in order to: establish the health needs of veterans; identify the support needed by their family and carers; inform commissioning and service provision; and highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life.

Motion moved.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. We propose that the National Assembly for Wales notes the centennial anniversaries of the battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the battle of Jutland, pays tribute to those who fought in these and other battles during the first world war and since, and honours the memory of both those who lost their lives and those who were casualties in the first world war, and other armed conflicts.On 7 July 1916, the infantrymen of the 38th (Welsh) Division, composed of miners from the Rhondda, farmers from Caernarfon and Anglesey, coal trimmers from the docks at Barry and Cardiff, bank workers from Swansea, and men from a whole host of other backgrounds and occupations from the counties of Wales, were ordered to make a frontal assault on a German-held line in front of a wood, roughly a mile in length, near the small village of Mametz, some 20 miles north-east of Amiens. It was just a week after the disastrous first day of the battle of the Somme, when over 19,000 men had been killed. The Welsh soldiers walked straight into the machine guns of the professional German soldiers well-entrenched at the edge of the wood. ‘All hell broke loose as machine guns opened up on us from the front and from the flank. We stood no chance and the boys were everywhere falling, but we kept moving forward,’ wrote Private Albert Evans of the 16th (Cardiff City) Battalion of the Welsh Regiment. In the words of another Welsh soldier: ‘Hell cannot be much worse.’ Four hundred were killed on the first day of what became a five-day battle. By its end, following fierce and confused hand-to-hand fighting within the wood, 4,000 men had been killed or wounded. We will remember them, as we must their contemporaries today.The UK has a duty of care to its armed forces. This began as an unspoken pact between society and the military, possibly originating as far back as Henry VIII’s reign. The pact was formally codified as a covenant in 2000. It was not a law, but was reinforced by custom and convention. The armed forces covenant refers to the mutual obligations between the nations and their armed forces. It sets out what safeguards, rewards and compensation military personnel can expect in return for military service and the risks and hardships that can involve. The principles of the covenant were enshrined in law by the Armed Forces Act 2011. All 22 local authorities in Wales have in place an armed forces community covenant, requiring them to have elected member armed forces champions. But more is needed.We regret the Welsh Government amendment stating that it should only consider the support for Wales’s armed forces and community that I will be proposing, when, as our motion states, the Welsh Government must provide this during the fifth Assembly term. We therefore urge the Welsh Government to listen to Wales’s armed forces community and support our motion unamended.The Scottish Government introduced the Scottish Veterans Commissioner in 2014. The establishment of an armed forces commissioner for Wales is essential to support the specific needs of veterans and represent these to Welsh Government, and to properly scrutinise service delivery for veterans carried out by Welsh Government, NHS Wales and local authorities. Dedicated both to veterans and the wider armed forces community, the commissioner would also engage with the community and champion the many key third sector projects supporting veterans, so that they may be rolled out nationally with support by the Welsh Government.In this context, we must recognise the UK Government’s armed forces covenant Libor funding for CAIS Wales’s Change Step veteran services, which works across Wales providing veterans with tailored peer support and specialist intervention. Having spoken at the 2013 launch of Change Step, I commend both its development since and its sister project, Listen In, supporting the role played by families and friends of veterans in promoting recovery from problems associated with military service. We must also welcome Libor funding to the First Choice Housing Association to support Wales Homes for Veterans—Alabaré.Although the Ministry of Defence forces discount service and card are welcomed, providing money off items ranging from children’s toys to mobile phones, Welsh Conservatives have also long campaigned for a veterans card scheme in Wales. This would provide free bus travel, priority access to NHS treatments and home adaptations needed as a result of in-service injury or illness, as well as free access to leisure centres and Cadw sites. However, the Welsh Government has consistently kicked this issue into the long grass since 2014, when a veterans ID card task and finish group was set up. We therefore call on the new Welsh Government to begin immediate work on the veterans card.We must increase funding for the Veterans’ NHS Wales service to enhance its capacity and improve its ability to help veterans in need and, actually, save money down the road too.In April, I visited a constituent living in a Wales Homes for Veterans property who, following his army discharge, was diagnosed with chronic and complex service-related post-traumatic stress disorder. He had attempted suicide in March after repeated attempts to secure appropriate NHS Wales intervention had failed. Further to my intervention, his community mental health team promised a care co-ordinator within four weeks. However, when I was asked to visit him again two months later, he had still heard nothing. When Wales Homes for Veterans chased this, they were told that the health board had lost six members of staff and were replacing them. The staff at Wales Homes for Veterans also told me that another person being supported by them had been waiting four months since being assessed by the Veterans’ NHS Wales psychological therapist, who was now on sick leave. They also told me that Veterans’ NHS Wales was providing a good initial response to referrals, but in truth they said this is just a quick assessment meeting, and the patient is then back on the waiting list if they need psychological intervention.Although an estimated 10,000 ex-forces personnel in Wales suffer from complex military PTSD—4 per cent to 5 per cent of the ex-forces population in Wales—a freedom of information request established that of 158 veterans referred to the service in 2012-13, only 100 were treated over a 12-month period, only 24 service user feedback forms were completed, and only 39 veterans were discharged. In contrast, a recent written answer by the Cabinet Secretary for health stated that there were 329 referrals in the same period and 529 in 2015-16, but added that this included extrapolated data. Another written answer from the Cabinet Secretary two weeks ago confirmed that the Welsh Government does not hold a figure for veterans suffering from PTSD in Wales.As Dr Neil Kitchiner, principal clinician of Veterans’ NHS Wales, told the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets, chaired by Darren Millar, last year—after we’d successfully campaigned against the Welsh Government’s proposed £100,000 annual funding cut—he told us, or told the group, there’d been no funding increase since 2010 despite increasing workload for the service each year, that Welsh funding was below that of other UK NHS services, despite being the only national veterans’ service in the UK, and that, instead of a £100,000 top-up, an increase in their £485,000 annual budget to £1 million would help them meet Welsh Government target guidelines and prudent healthcare principles. He told us also equivalent funding in Scotland was £2.5 million.It is clear both from my comments thus far and the available evidence that improved Welsh Government data collection is vital in order to establish the health needs of veterans, to identify the support needed by their family and carers, to inform commissioning and service provision, and to highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life. In fact, this is exactly what last month’s ‘Call to Mind: Wales’ report, commissioned by the Forces in Mind Trust and based on interviews with veterans and their families and people working in the voluntary and independent sector, called for. This report also called for increased Veterans’ NHS Wales capacity, stating that much more needs to be done to support the mental health needs of veterans in Wales. The need for improved data collection is further emphasised by the Royal British Legion’s ‘Count them in’ campaign, which calls for questions on the armed forces community to be included in the next UK census. As they say: ‘It is estimated there are between 6.5 and 6.7 million members of the armed forces community currently living in the UK’,representing about a tenth of the population, yet little is known about the exact numbers, location and needs of this significant group. In fact, there could up to 0.25 million veterans in Wales but, without this data, we cannot plan for the NHS Wales capacity needed, commission the wider services required, or provide the support on which families and carers depend, and we cannot deliver on the promise made by the armed forces covenant that those who serve or have served in the armed forces, and their families, are treated fairly. I commend this motion accordingly.

Thank you very much. I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to move formally amendment 1.

Gwelliant 1—Jane HuttIn point 4 delete ‘must provide greater support to Wales’s armed forces and veterans community during the fifth Assembly, including through’ and insert ‘should consider’.

Amendment 1 moved.

Carl Sargeant AC: Formally.

Thank you very much. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank my own party for tabling this debate today and for not being afraid to put forward the first three points of this motion? Because these points are not motherhood and apple pie or sentimental hand wringing. Loss of life on this scale is both unimaginable and unconscionable, with consequences for every community. They remind us, as if we need reminding in this week of the publication of the Chilcott inquiry report, that the decision of any state to go to war must be based on overwhelmingly compelling evidence. They remind us that other parts of the world are still suffering from genocide. And they remind us to get a little bit of perspective on the events of the last month or so. Perspective, of course, is one of the great gifts of archiving and interpretation and I hope that the Welsh Government will look favourably on the Welsh Conservatives’ proposals for the multi-site military museum for Wales where we can reflect on war and peace and the place of the people of Wales in both. I’d also like to raise a couple of practical issues on point 4 of the motion, because I’ve no doubt that all Members of this Assembly are sincere in their insistence in recognising their service to this country and other countries, and our wish to recognise that by prioritising and meeting the needs of every serviceman and woman. Even though Welsh Conservatives believe that the Welsh Government could go much further than they have to meet those needs, we do acknowledge the support that has been provided to date and I’m fairly sure that the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps some other Members, if there were more of them here, might draw some attention to that. But I hope that those will also acknowledge that there’s a long way to go as well, and Welsh Conservatives will continue to call for an armed forces and veterans’ commissioner until we get one. No matter how excellent the services are that are available, in whatever sector, they are not necessarily well integrated nor are they easy to find. In the case of Welsh Government, that, I think, is partly down, again, to poor monitoring and evaluation.Now, I expect the Cabinet Secretary to argue against the need for a commissioner because local authorities—all of them—have armed forces champions. Well, they might—but how accessible are they? It’s been like an episode of ‘Sherlock’ in my office this morning. While we finally got to the bottom of who has got the responsibility for this in Swansea council by going through a string of links relating to councillors, we’re still at a loss to identify who it is in Bridgend, although we did stumble across a PDF of a members’ report on the champion from 2013.There is nothing intuitive or client-focused about this, there is nothing proactive about this, and no-one is being held accountable for this. A commissioner would help Welsh Government ensure that its hard work in this area is achieving results. And that’s all we want. I want it not just for servicemen and servicewomen, past and present, but for their families as well, because not every veteran will go through the extreme experiences that we’re going to be hearing about a bit more today, but those who do don’t always go through it alone; their family members are also affected. There is a duty, in my view, to make sure that close family members, who often become carers, are properly supported too. Because it’s often going to be those family members who take responsibility for trying to find help, who look at council websites and haven’t spent enough time on their X-Box to get the skills to negotiate the labyrinthine route to get that information. Please, Cabinet Secretary, make it easier for them. Help them and help the service leaver cope with the transition back into civilian life. I know you’ve got the will to do it, but the statistics for veterans who are unemployed, who are victims of substance abuse, prone to mental health problems—not just post-traumatic stress disorder–and who end up homeless are extremely worrying. For almost every one of those individuals, there will be families in trouble and family members who don’t self-identify as carers. So, I’d be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if you would confirm today that you will work with colleagues in Government to look at the carers strategy and evaluate, firstly, how well it meets and prioritises the needs of those who care for veterans, and, secondly, veterans who are themselves carers.Some of the most disheartening data we have regarding ex-servicemen—and it is servicemen in particular—are the numbers who end up in prison and the effect that it has on them and their families. Returning to a stable family is the prime factor in an ex-offender’s chances of avoiding recidivism and the vulnerabilities that I’ve just mentioned. So, could I recommend the report of the cross-party group on children affected by parental imprisonment to you, Cabinet Secretary, as many of its findings will help assist Welsh Government in helping veteran ex-offenders and their families preserve that stability? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I’m grateful for the chance to speak in this debate and I wish to start by welcoming the first world war commemoration programme for Wales that’s been developed by the Welsh Government in partnership with key organisations, including the Royal British Legion and the armed forces themselves. We’ve already seen and continue to see a range of commemorations taking place to mark both the outbreak of the war and the significant battles that took place. In April last year, I was privileged to attend a commemoration at Whitehall to mark 100 years since the Gallipoli campaign, after my mum responded to a media notification advising that surviving relatives could attend to pay their respects. We applied and went to Whitehall to remember James Brockley, my great great uncle who was killed in action on 9 August 1915. His brother Jack was in the same battalion; he was injured when he found out the fate of his brother.There are a great many initiatives and community events happening across the country to commemorate the centenary of the first world war, and I—[Interruption.] I intend to make the most of this opportunity to share with Members a fantastic initiative based in north-east Wales. In my own constituency of Delyn, Viv and Eifion Williams have established Flintshire Memorials, or ‘Names on Stone’ as it’s better known on Twitter. Flintshirewarmemorials.com is a community website staffed by volunteers—around 24 in total at the moment—and each volunteer takes a memorial in Flintshire to research; ‘Flintshire’ that is, as it was defined at the end of world war one. The researchers find out what they can using various sources—local, national and international—and family members of the researched servicemen have to contact the organisation to share more information, and photos, letters and so on then get added to the servicemen’s story.Flintshire Memorials has gone from strength to strength after receiving a lottery grant of £10,000 in 2015 to develop the project and has since organised study trips to France and Flanders in April over the last two years, and is reaching out to the community to give talks and tell the stories of the servicemen to local groups, ranging from the Women’s Institute to rotary clubs, and, importantly, to schools. As we take time to remember those who served in world war one during the centenary commemorations, let us also recognise volunteers and organisations like Flintshire Memorials who are doing sterling work reminding us of those who served and fell in our own communities across Wales. Diolch.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate today and, indeed, congratulate my own Conservative group for being the group that has constantly brought motions before the Assembly to reflect on some of the important initiatives that the Welsh Government could enact and actually show real solidarity with our veterans and service personnel, wherever they might serve. I know the Cabinet Secretary, in fairness, has shown a commitment as well himself, because he’s held the brief for the armed forces on several occasions through his journey through the Welsh Cabinet.But I do regret, today, that the Welsh Government have put down an amendment that only calls to ‘consider’. Many of the points there—the four points in particular about a service commissioner, the introduction of a veterans card, support for veterans via the NHS Wales service, and improving the data collection—are long-running issues that I actually don’t believe need further consideration. Government should well be able now to be in a position to actually implement, over the lifetime of this Assembly, for five years, key improvements. I will take the intervention.

Carl Sargeant AC: Let me draw your attention to one example of the issues surrounding this—the data-collection issue that the Member raised and Mark Isherwood raised about the Royal British Legion about data sharing around the survey. We’re supportive of the principle of that, but we have advice from the security services saying that this will put, potentially, service personnel at risk. I am not prepared to do that until we clarify that position. So, we aren’t ready to implement this because of security advice around that. We cannot put vulnerable adults in communities at risk because of data sharing because you think it’s the right thing to do. We will and do need to act on fact.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I agree we need to act on advice and the advice that’s given, but I do direct the Cabinet Secretary to the health committee’s report into this particular data-collection exercise that the health committee in the third Assembly undertook, and took extensive evidence from the Royal British Legion, from veterans and from families. The health committee did actually offer a route forward for the Government at that time, and I do believe—I think it was Edwina Hart who was the Minister who responded to that report—indicated a clear willingness to progress that agenda. So, I do hope that, obviously, we will not, at year 5 of this Assembly, be continuing to debate some of these points that really do find consensus around the Chamber, and I do hope that the Minister in his reply will be more forthcoming in acknowledging the support that can be given via those four initiatives that are contained in the motion.I also do want to spend some of my contribution this afternoon reflecting on the commemorations that have been undertaken around the events of the first world war. Neil Hamilton, the leader of UKIP, and the leader of Plaid Cymru, and, indeed, the First Minister and the Presiding Officer, attended a very moving service last week at Mametz. To have sat there with the 800 plus, I would say, people who attended that service really was a huge privilege, to actually sit at an event that commemorated, I would suggest, an atrocity that happened, where young men were thrown forward time and time again in futile waves against machine guns to achieve so little, emphasised the bravery, the courage, of the individuals who were participating in the battle of the Somme, but actually the futility of some of the orders and directions that were coming down. It is most probably wrong, in some respects, as we stand here today, to try and measure ourselves against what the actions were 100 years ago, but, clearly, many, many families and many individuals and communities suffered a horrendous loss of life, and it is perfectly fitting and right that we do commemorate such events as Mametz, and we never ever forget the sacrifice that was made, not just in the first world war, but the second world war, and, indeed, the sacrifices of our armed services. Wales has always had a very noble tradition of providing recruits in all three sections of our armed services. We do have to pay tribute to the role that—in modern engagement, very often it is humanitarian and peacekeeping roles that our armed forces undertake in many theatres across the whole of the world. Not just, obviously, in the European theatre, but across the world, their expertise is called for and is greatly received in humanitarian and peacekeeping missions. I do hope that this Cabinet Secretary will enlighten us as to some of the initiatives, via education and promotion, that the Government will engage with schools and youth organisations, so that, instead of just being an event on the calendar, many of these commemorative events can actually come to life and the next generation can feel an attachment and an affinity to support that memory and that legacy that so many people left.But, above all, I do want to hear, importantly, from the Cabinet Secretary today what he’ll be doing, working with the Cabinet Secretary for health, in the support around mental health issues that will be available to veterans in our communities, wherever they might live. We cannot afford to have a postcode lottery. I’m very pleased that it was the Vale of Glamorgan Council that first started the process of the military covenant being adopted by local authorities. Councillor Janet Charles, at the time, was the lead member for that. It was a Conservative-led council that did that. I do believe that that covenant has been greatly attractive to many local authorities in the way that they bring forward the help and support that they offer in their local areas. But you have to link up what the local authorities are doing with what the local health board is doing, and indeed the initiatives of the Welsh Government. I do pay tribute to Darren Millar, to my side here, who has chaired the all-party group on the armed services here in the Assembly. That work, hopefully, greatly informs Members about what is undertaken in our name by our service personnel, wherever they might be serving.So, I do hope that the Minister will reflect on the amendment that has been put down in the Government’s name today, and I do hope that he might just consider withdrawing that amendment and supporting the motion unamended, because I do think then we can really measure the context of the support the Government is giving to a valuable section of our community.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Conservatives for bringing this motion today for us to have an opportunity to debate and discuss this very important matter.When we mark the centenary of the battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the battle of Jutland, we are remembering the loss of the lives of thousands of men. It is easy to forget, given the sheer numbers involved, that each number in the count of the dead represents an individual who left behind his family, his community, to fight and die in unimaginable circumstances.For those who fought in the first world war, and those who have fought in every war since, we entered into a covenant with them that society would provide the support they need if and when they return. That means ensuring that there is adequate mental health care available and that there is support for them to find housing and employment. It means ensuring that their families and children are supported, that those who have been injured—and particularly those who have suffered life-changing injuries—receive the highest possible standard of healthcare.Our remembrance should also include Wales’s proud legacy of striving for conflict resolution and seeking alternatives to war. Figures like Lord Llandinam, Liberal Member of Parliament and, later, Member of the House of Lords, whose writing on the use of force and international law and order was foundational to the United Nations charter. He was key in the establishment of Cardiff’s Temple of Peace and Health, which he wanted to be a memorial to those gallant men from all nations who gave their lives in the war that was to end all wars. We should keep that Welsh tradition in mind as we mark the centenaries this year. It has even more resonance and importance when we consider the nature of modern war. We are having this debate today in the shadow of the publication of the Chilcot report last week. One of the key findings of that report was that the armed forces were sent into Iraq without proper planning and without necessary equipment being made available to them. Many within the armed forces and the families of those who died see this, rightly, as a betrayal. The report also found that all avenues had not been exhausted in the pursuit of avoiding war in the first place.The nature of war has changed, of course, since the first world war. The UN have claimed that modern armed conflict kills and maims more children than it does soldiers. While the exact statistics are disputed, it is roughly the case that civilian fatalities in wartime climbed from 5 per cent at the turn of the twentieth century to 15 per cent during world war one, to 65 per cent by the end of the second world war, and to more than 90 per cent in wars of the 1990s. When we choose to fight, we choose to engage in war that will hurt those who are not involved, and we displace many, many more.Remembrance, of course, should not be a celebration but, rather, a meditation on those who have lost their lives and on how we can work to prevent conflict and the loss of life in the future. For those who return from conflict, the very least society should do is to ensure that they are properly cared for. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Neil Hamilton AC: I congratulate the Conservative group on choosing this topic for debate today and I commend Mark Isherwood on the excellent way in which he introduced it. Andrew Davies has already referred to the great privilege that we party leaders had, along with the Presiding Officer, in being able to attend the commemoration of the centenary of the battle of Mametz Wood last week. I’ve been attending remembrance day celebrations of various kinds for many, many years and I always find them tremendously affecting, but I’ve never actually been to one of the first world war battlefield sites before, and it is unimaginable on a sunny day, with the corn waving in the fields, to imagine, 100 years ago, the carnage, the noise and the scenes of death and destruction that occurred then.One of the most affecting things that I brought back from the battlefield were the stories of some of the Welsh soldiers who died on that day. In particular, Corporal Frederick Hugh Roberts, who had cheated death in the Senghenydd pit disaster on 17 October in 1913, because he’d had a successful bet on a horse, which led to a night of heavy drinking and he had a hangover, which kept him away from the pit that killed 439 of his workmates. Sadly, he perished in a hail of bullets on 10 July 1916. And, a pair of brothers Arthur and Leonard Tregaskis who had both emigrated to Canada together and returned to join up as volunteers to fight in the war; both of them died on the same day—7 July 1916. One can’t imagine, really, how, seeing what happened on that day, soldiers could carry on pushing forward through the barbed wire into no-man’s-land knowing, I presume, the almost certainty of being cut down. So, it is right that we should remember them and always remember them. One of the things that I’ve appreciated most in the course of a long time in politics is how we pay actually more regard to those who perished in the first world war and the second world war than perhaps we did in the days of my youth, and I’m pleased that younger people also attend these celebrations in such numbers today.Like everybody else, I’m rather surprised that the Government has put down the amendment to this motion. I’m sure that none of them, actually, disagrees with the principle of what is being proposed here and I’m surprised that they don’t feel able to agree that we must provide the extra support that the motion calls for, but should only further consider it. I won’t add to the arguments that Andrew Davies has advanced, except to say that I agree with what he said absolutely. There are so many ways in which we can improve the provision of social services, housing, et cetera, for our veterans. People who are in the armed forces, generally speaking, aren’t really paid very much for what they do and they often have to put up with enormous stresses and strains in life. The incidents of marital break-ups are very great and that produces huge problems for both parties in civilian life, and there are all sorts of mental problems and pressures that they have to cope with as well. In the first world war, of course, many, many soldiers were shot for cowardice when, in fact, they were suffering from stress and other conditions which, then, were unrecognised. I think it behoves us all—it certainly behoves Government—to give the maximum possible support to our servicemen and women and veterans as they make the transition to private and civilian life.We haven’t time to go into the details too much, but I’m very much in favour of a standardised question for public bodies to ask to prove identification of members of the armed forces in the provision of their services. I don’t, I’m afraid, accept the excuse given by the Cabinet Secretary for this not to be done, because we know so many cases in our constituency work where people would benefit if they were known to have been—[Interruption.] I’m afraid that Alun Davies, of course, yet again, disgraces himself and perhaps this Chamber, by treating with some levity a very serious matter, and he would do better, perhaps, to listen rather than gibber away in this place, as he so often does. [Interruption.]

Thank you, thank you.

Neil Hamilton AC: But, there are so many cases where people who feel that they’ve not got what they needed out of the health service claim afterwards that the reason for that provision was, or rather, that those in the health service who didn’t understand their needs, did not identify that they were armed forces veterans and their status was simply not recognised or recorded by the staff who dealt with them. So, my time is up. I would like to commend this motion to the house and I hope that it will pass unamended.

Thank you. I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Members will be aware that, in my recent oral statement, I set out the Welsh Government support for the armed forces community in Wales. Good progress is being made across all of Wales in supporting our armed forces community, and I believe that if we continue to work collaboratively with our partners, sharing resources and best practice, we can build on the success. Can I also pay tribute—they are not in the title of the debate—to the families, partners and children of the armed forces personnel who often get forgotten about in terms of the support that they need? This is something that I’m very keen to make sure that this Government looks at—the holistic support for the families of the armed forces.I agree and I’m pleased that point 1 of the motion notes the centenary of the three momentous battles of the first world war. Collectively, the battles of Somme, Mametz Wood and Jutland led to the sacrifice of huge numbers of Welsh soldiers to protect the freedom that we have today, and they should not be forgotten.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Carl Sargeant AC: Indeed.

Andrew RT Davies AC: In my comments, I forgot to mention—I should have mentioned, and I hope you’ll commend them as well—the Western Front Association, which was so integral to the commemoration of Mametz Wood. I know they work very closely with the Welsh Government and the armed services, and many of those members are in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Carl Sargeant AC: I’m grateful for the Member’s intervention, and, of course, there are many that we will not mention today, but should not be forgotten in terms of their action, which saved many lives for us so that we can live in the peace that we survive in. We continue to commemorate those who made the ultimate sacrifice, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government has contributed to the memorial erected to mark the bravery and sacrifice of the thirty-eighth division at Mametz Wood. The First Minister attended the national service of remembrance there on 7 July to honour their courage and bravery.I also support the second and third points in the motion. The Welsh Government, through its Cymru’n Cofio—Wales Remembers 14-18 programme, pays tribute to those who fought for their country, and we will continue to work with the partner organisations to mark the contribution of our armed forces to the defence of the country and the way of life. The Welsh Government continues its support for the armed forces days held in north and south Wales. These events allow the people of Wales the opportunity to show their appreciation and gratitude to those currently serving and to our ex-service personnel. I attended the one with Darren Millar and many other Members in north Wales recently. They also provide an opportunity for the younger generation to learn and appreciate the sacrifices made by servicemen and women in defending our freedom.In taking forward our devolved commitments, the Welsh Government will continue to support the armed forces covenant. The package of support reflects our moral obligation to ensure that families and members of the armed forces are not disadvantaged because of their life in the forces. We will work collaboratively, again, with our partners to refresh our package of support later this year, listening to the valuable feedback. We will be publishing a new document called ‘Welcome to Wales’, tailored specifically for serving personnel and their families. I think that, just picking up a point that Suzy Davies made there around the covenant and making sure information is shared and available to individuals, whether serving, caring or families, it is a really important point. I met with the armed forces expert group this morning—again, my first meeting in this portfolio with them. But work has been ongoing about gathering the best evidence and the best practice, and, actually, there was a programme that’s being considered in Warwickshire, I think the local authority is, where they’re looking at an app-based programme for service users and for providers of services, where they can get a very quick review of what services and signposts are available. So, we are going to be looking at that, seeing if we can introduce that across Wales as well. So, I agree with the Member—we can do much more in terms of helping and signposting individuals as we go through. But it’s really important that I listen to the expert group, because they are at the front end of this, both families and serving personnel.We have proposed an amendment to point 4 to reflect the Welsh Government’s commitment to engaging with ideas from all parts of the Assembly. We have concerns about some of the Conservative proposals, but we do not want to reject them out of hand. This is an important issue for us too, and I will continue to work and strive to see what support we can get—non-partisan—where we can achieve success on these suggestions.With regard to the proposal of the armed forces veterans commissioner, we have undertaken some work on this issue and in 2015, in June, members of the expert group met with the Scottish Veterans Commissioner to consider lessons learned and the possible value of a similar post here. We will continue to consider the veterans commissioner’s work in Scotland, along with the best practice elsewhere. We need to be convinced that appointing a commissioner—and I with interest note that the Conservatives want a commissioner for this, but any other commissioners that we’ve had, generally they’ve voted against, in principle, on many occasions—would provide, in this guise, practical benefits for all our veterans. It is worth nothing that I am looking and will continue to look at that. It should be noted that serving members of the armed forces are the responsibility of the Ministry of Defence. However, we do recognise the valuable contribution they pay and their work within our community. Again, I recognise the work that the Vale of Glamorgan did around the community covenant, and I pay tribute also to Councillor Anthony Powell, who obviously now continues the good work. I think there are a lot of things that other authorities can learn from in terms of the Vale, and I continue to push that. I will be writing out to local authorities this week on the basis of the expert panel group this morning and my views around that. In regard to the veterans ID card that Members raised, options to develop a veterans ID card were considered by the task and finish group—again, made up of a reference group in the expert team. They concluded that the value of the introduction of a veterans ID card then would be limited. I will give that further consideration because I think that if it’s the right thing to do then we should do that, but what I do believe is that it shouldn’t be based upon partisan rules; it should be based on fact, and if we can evidence that it’s the right thing to do I’m very happy to do so.Can I pay tribute to many of the Members and the contributions that they made in the Chamber today? I heard a slight about my colleague Alun Davies. I have to say that Alun Davies is a great Member for Blaenau Gwent in terms of representing his constituency, and I know that he represents the armed forces and members of that community very well. I unfortunately think that Neil Hamilton’s contribution about discharging the duty around ignoring security advice where people are vulnerable in our community is very dangerous, and very foolish to even suggest. I may suggest the Member wishes to reconsider his comments in that aspect.With regards to point 4, we will consider the current funding provided to the Veterans’ NHS Wales. We will continue to provide £585,000 a year maintain the unique Veterans’ NHS Wales service. We have a good relationship with the Veterans’ NHS Wales service. Together, we will consider the options to enhance its capacity so that where veterans are in need, they receive the support that they are entitled to. Also—it’s very rare you’ll hear me say this, Presiding Officer—but Mark Isherwood’s introduction was very useful in setting the scene. However, I think we must acknowledge that we recognise that there’s much more to do to support our veterans and armed forces communities in Wales, but we are certainly not lagging behind anywhere in the UK. There are still great opportunities. The expert veterans group do suggest that we are leading the way, and I would hope that the Member who responds to this debate would recognise that and give credit where credit’s due.Finally, we are very willing to consider ways of improving data collection. I am aware of the lack of data available, and it has implications on future policy and service planning. The ability to understand the needs of our armed forces community is something that, across Government, we are looking at—how we can support that better, but with the caveat of the security issue I mentioned earlier on. I am supportive of the need to gather further inspiration but would like to fully assess that programme. The expert group that we host will explore this further, but I’m thankful to the Members opposite for bringing this debate today to celebrate the fact we’ve got a fantastic armed forces service here in Wales. They do a tremendous job in our community and long should we support them.

Thank you very much. I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank everybody in the Chamber who has contributed to this debate? Most of the debate has been very good spirited and I think it’s important that we take things forward in support of our armed forces community and the veterans that we have in Wales on a cross-party basis wherever possible. I’m pleased that the Minister put on record his support for much of what we are proposing today in our motion, notwithstanding that he will still be supporting the Government amendment, and that that will not be withdrawn. I want to pay tribute to the Government, to be fair, for the excellent programme of activities around the centenary of the first world war that have been organised, and for the way in which there has been dignity in the commemorative events, and for the fact that they’re not just happening here in Wales, but where there is an important place, like Mametz, we’re also represented there and holding events overseas. I think that the impact that that particular service had on those who saw it on the television or were indeed present, as Andrew R.T. Davies, Neil Hamilton and others have indicated—it had a big emotional impact on those who were there, particularly hearing some of those individual stories that have been brought to the debate as well. I also want to thank the Welsh Government for continuing to support Armed Forces Day, both in north and south Wales, when it occurs, and, indeed, the investment that you continue to give into the Veterans’ NHS Wales service. There is a capacity problem, though, in that service, and I’m pleased that the Minister has reflected on that and said he will look at whether there’s an opportunity to provide some more investment. It is clearly unacceptable that people are still waiting too long, sometimes, for an assessment. As the Minister wil know, and others in this Chamber will know, particularly when mental health issues are presenting, it’s often important to strike while the iron’s hot and, when somebody wants to engage with a service, to give them some rapid access. I am a little bit concerned at the advice that’s been given to the Minister around security in relation to the census. I’m a big supporter as well of the Royal British Legion’s campaign ‘Count them in’, because it is important that we know where our veteran community is in order that we can focus our services on them. I can sort of understand it for serving personnel, in terms of security concerns, but certainlty for veterans, those who have not been in active service for many years, I think there must be some way of getting around the concerns in order to get things right. I want to pay tribute to the Royal British Legion, to SSAFA and to the many other organisations that support veterans in communities across Wales. Mark Isherwood did make an excellent opening speech, setting the scene. He went into graphic detail about the futility of those battles on the Somme, and in particular at Mametz Wood, where many people lost their lives. There was a parade in Ruthin over the weekend, where 4,000 poppies were paraded down the streets to commemorate the lives of those Welsh soldiers who were lost over the course of that battle. When you think about the lives that were lost in the battle of the Somme on the first day—30,000 people, which is the population of the town of Colwyn Bay, the biggest population centre on the north Wales coast, gone in just a 24-hour period—it is pretty horrific. That’s why we’ve got to do what we can, not just to remember those events, but to reflect on them in order that we can avoid similar horrific events taking place in the future. I’m very proud that CAIS and their Change Step programme is located and has its headquarters in my constituency, in Colwyn Bay. Of course, it’s a Wales-wide service that that organisation provides, but it’s in a precarious state. It has funding that will see it through to March of next year, but beyond that, there’s no security. I do implore you, Minister, to look at whether there’s an opportunity to fund that service, to make it sustainable into the future, because there is absolutely no doubt, when you speak to people who’ve engaged with that particular programme, the Change Step programme, that it has made a radical difference to their lives—very often grabbing them when they’re on that spiral of decline, having had problems with PTSD, and it’s pulled them back up onto their feet and set them right. And, of course, it extends support to the family network that you mentioned as well, Cabinet Secretary—a very important part of the jigsaw, which is often overlooked and ignored. Suzy Davies reminded us, of course, that we shouldn’t just focus on this centenary event, but we also need some permanent commemorative activities and things that we can engage with all of the time and all year round. We have an idea for a national military museum at different locations across Wales that people can engage with. I think that that is an excellent idea that the Welsh Government ought to pick up.On our proposal for an armed forces commissioner, again, I’m pleased that you haven’t shut the door completely on that, Minister, and that you’re looking at the evidence from Scotland, but remember, the Scottish commissioner is purely for veterans, not for the whole of the armed forces family. What we’re proposing here is slightly different from what’s available and on the table in Scotland. In terms of affordability and the way that they can drive improvement in services, it’s important that you don’t completely overlook it and that you do look to a commissioner who can hold those armed forces champions in our local authorities and in the NHS to account for delivery on the objectives that we all have, indeed.Hannah Blythyn, of course, made reference to some of the activities and the work of Flintshire War Memorials in her own constituency, and I think it’s important to reflect on all of those. Steffan Lewis—very briefly, you made reference to Chilcot and, of course, this debate comes hot on the heels of the publication of that report and, quite rightly, you reflected on the very difficult decisions that Governments often take, sometimes with hindsight that may have been different when people look back on history. But it is important that we reflect on the peacekeeping missions now that many of our troops are engaged in around with the world, and that we do all we can to support those who are in active service and who’ve had active service in the past across the country. So, I commend the motion to you. I do hope that you’ll be able to support it unamended.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. We’ll defer this item until voting time. And it’s been agreed that voting time will take place before the short debates. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. Okay, thank you.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. 9. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Simon Thomas. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. The voted in favour 14. There were 10 abstentions and 26 against. Therefore, the motion falls.

Motion not agreed: For 14, Against 26, Abstain 10.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6077.Click to see vote results

We now call for a vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 47, no abstentions, three against. Therefore, the amendment is carried.

Amendment agreed: For 47, Against 3, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6077.Click to see vote results

So, I call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6077 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the promises made to the people of Wales by those who campaigned for the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union.2. Calls on the UK Government to ensure that such promises are fulfilled following withdrawal from the EU, including that:a) an additional £490 million a year will be made available for the Welsh NHS;b) the level of funding Wales currently receives from EU programmes will be maintained;c) the direct payment support received by Welsh farmers will be at least equal to that received through the Common Agricultural Policy; d) the right of EU citizens at the time of Brexit to remain in the UK without fear or hindrance is guaranteed; ande) all funding arrangements in the post-Brexit era are predicated on a fair funding framework and a major revision of the Barnett Formula.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37. There were 12 abstentions and one Member voted against. Therefore, the motion as amended is carried.

Motion NDM6077 as amended agreed: For 37, Against 1, Abstain 12.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6077 as amended.Click to see vote results

We will now move to the Welsh Conservatives debate, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 16, one abstention, 33 against. Therefore, the motion falls.

Motion not agreed: For 16, Against 33, Abstain 1.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6075.Click to see vote results

I call for a vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. There were 34 for, 16 against. Therefore, the amendment is carried.

Motion agreed: For 34, Against 16, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 1 to motion NDM6075.Click to see vote results

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6075 as amended:To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:1. Notes the centennial anniversaries of the Battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the Battle of Jutland.2. Pays tribute to those who fought in these and other battles during the First World War.3. Honours the memory of both those who lost their lives and those who were casualties of the First World War, and other armed conflicts.4. Believes the Welsh Government should consider:a) establishing an Armed Forces & Veterans Commissioner, prioritising their specific need;b) introducing a Veterans Card Scheme to extend privileges to former service personnel;c) increasing funding for the Veterans’ NHS Wales service, to enhance its capacity and improve its ability to help veterans in need; andd) improving data collection in order to: establish the health needs of veterans; identify the support needed by their family and carers; inform commissioning and service provision; and highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life.

Open the vote. Close the vote. There were 50 votes for, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is carried.

Motion NDM6075 as amended agreed: For 50, Against 0, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on motion NDM6075 as amended.Click to see vote results

Can I ask you, if you are leaving the Chamber, to do so quickly and quietly, please?

10. 10. Short Debate: Meeting Wales's Housing Need—Further Action Needed to Increase Housing Supply

I now move to the short debate, and I call on Mike Hedges to speak on the topic he has chosen ‘Meeting Wales’s Housing Need: Further Action Needed to Increase Housing Supply’. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have given a minute in this debate—[Interruption.]

Quiet please, I’m sorry.

Mike Hedges AC: I have given a minute in this debate to Jeremy Miles. I welcome this opportunity to raise a subject that I believe to be vital to the future of people in Wales. Housing, or the lack of it, is perhaps the greatest challenge facing this Assembly, and I welcome the opportunity to discuss it so early in this term. It’s certainly a major issue in my constituency, not just people who can’t get houses, but the poor quality of some of the privately rented properties that people are living in. The post-war period in terms of housing can be broken down into two periods. From 1945 to 1980, we saw a huge growth in council housing—and some of us were lucky enough to be brought up in one—and the building of a large number of new estates, especially in the larger urban areas. We also saw the growth of owner-occupation and the start of the building of large private estates, again predominantly in the larger urban areas. Since 1980, there has been a large increase in empty properties. There are currently 22,000 in Wales. There has been change in housing tenure, increase in the number of single-person households, increase in pensioner households and an increase in young people in houses in multiple occupation, which used to be only students. I remember when HMO equalled student housing. Much more now, it equals a lot of other young people, and older people who end up in houses in multiple occupation, not out of choice, but out of necessity. We’ve seen the growth of housing associations, and a return to a large private rented sector.I aim to show, amongst other things, that a third model of housing, the housing co-operative model, should also play a part in the future housing provision within Wales. I wish to highlight the positive impact of the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 and the housing progress already made by this Welsh Labour Government. The housing Act was a major piece of social legislation, but I am sure of two things: the Act has not met the hopes and aspirations of everyone and there will be more housing Bills. The Act provides a framework for regulating landlords, where tenants can have assurances that their landlord will be obliged by law to provide good-quality housing and respond to repair needs. It also provides remedies for redress if these standards are not met. And I’m sure most people in this room have had their constituents coming to them, who are living in houses that they just cannot get repaired. The fact that it’s got water coming in and is not windproof is not a reason, as far as some landlords think, to actually do a repair to them—‘Give me the rent and if you don’t like it, in six months’ time, when your contract is up, I’ll move you out, and somebody else, more desperate than you, will actually end up moving in.’ And I’ve been in houses—I’m sure other people have here—where I can actually put my finger between the windowsill and the window pane—there were gaps. And central heating is something that many people in privately rented accommodation have heard of, but don’t actually have any access to.The Act also outlines the key role of local authorities in, wherever possible, preventing homelessness, thus making Wales the first of the UK nations to turn this principle into a legal requirement. It’s a tremendous movement because, far too often, local authorities would have somebody coming along and saying, ‘I’m on three months’ notice and I’m going to be put out on the street by my landlord’, or ‘I’m on one months’ notice.’ And what actually happened was that the council would say, ‘Come back when the notice is coming to an end’ rather than trying to keep them in some form of accommodation. Local authorities need to provide new Gypsy and Traveller sites where a need has been identified. So, tremendous progress has been made, and I think it would be wrong, talking about housing, not to mention the progress that’s been made in the last Assembly term. If I move on to housing co-operatives, which I’m very keen on, the legislation intended to further facilitate the development of co-operative housing by allowing fully mutual housing co-operatives to grant assured tenancies, thus protecting the interest of lenders. In some European countries, co-operatives make up 20 per cent of all housing, but it’s 0.1 per cent in Britain. Though, in some places, such as Liverpool, they have had a history of housing co-operatives. With such a shortage of housing in Wales, I don’t believe we can let the potential of providing accommodation via the co-operative model be virtually unused. We’ve been dominated by the two types, haven’t we? Rented housing or housing bought on a mortgage and then becoming owner-occupied. And the rented are either in private or council or from a social landlord. Can I just say how disappointed I am, when the Tories brought in the right to buy, that that ended the building of council houses? That really did cause a huge problem to a large number of people. I believe in council housing. From the age of six to the age of 25, I lived in a council house. They provided good-quality housing for many of us who originally lived in privately rented accommodation where the kitchen was a lean-to. I can actually say that I’m probably one of the few people who actually lived in a house that didn’t have a bath and we actually used a tin bath. [Interruption.] Sorry, Leanne Wood and I lived in houses like that—and John Griffiths. [Interruption.] [Laughter.] TThings have moved on with council quality of accommodation. I remember the large-scale slum clearance that led to large council estates being built and good-quality houses. The term ‘Parker Morris’ meant something to many of us. It meant quality. It meant that councils built houses of the highest standard and I’m really pleased to see councils like Swansea and Carmarthenshire looking to build housing again. But it can only work if the right to buy is suspended and ended, because what happens is, you build a house and somebody moves in who’s lived in council housing for a number of years and they then exercise the right to buy and all of a sudden you lose half the value, or 40 per cent of the value, of the house. It’s just not possible—much more than the legislation stopping you building council houses, councils can always build council houses if only by using the value of land they sold in order to build them. But if you build 10 houses at £100,000, if you gave £40,000 off each house in terms of discount, then you’re losing £400,000 when the 10 get sold. There is no logic, economically, to build them. With the right to buy suspended, councils can use land values in order to start building again, and there’s a huge demand for council housing. Most us who represent areas that are less affluent than others are really well aware of the needs of people we meet who are desperate to move out of very poor-quality privately rented accommodation into council housing.Returning to housing co-operatives, these really do work. They work all over the world, or, I should actually say, they work all over the world apart from Britain. If countries such as Sweden, Norway, Canada, Austria, Turkey—. Sweden has two large co-operative organisations that provide over 750,000 homes. About 18 per cent of the population of that country live in co-operative housing. For those people who watch American television, you’ll hear the term ‘co-op’ mentioned when they talk about people living in New York. Some of these are meant to be some of the richest people and they live in co-operative housing. But there are more co-operative housing homes in Vancouver than in the whole of the UK. It’s believed that less than 1 per cent of people in the UK live in co-operative housing and I would guess it’s probably nearer 0.1 per cent than 1 per cent.The idea of introducing and developing housing co-operatives in the UK is not a new one, and it’s cross-party as well. The Conservatives under John Major looked at it. The Conservatives produced a report in 1995, ‘Tenants in Control: An Evaluation of Tenant-Led Housing Management Organisations’, which, to the astonishment of many, concluded that co-operative housing models not only were cost-effective but also provided their members with a number of significant benefits. There have been subsequent reports and investigations into housing co-operative models. PwC had an investigation into it. In fact, this is Britain at its best, isn’t it? We have lots of investigations, lots of reports; they haven’t had a group yet of experts looking into it, but I’m sure that that will come along somewhere. It’s the action at the end of it we seem to have a huge problem with. I think it really is important that we do try and develop this as a model. We all know there’s a huge housing need. We know there’s a housing need in Britain. We know there’s a housing need in Wales. And, can I say, on a parochial note, I know there’s a housing need in Swansea East?For instance, being part of a housing co-operative gives members the opportunity to use existing skills or develop new skills. They provide members with a stake and a vested interest in where they live and can reduce any dependency tenants have on landlords or the state. In terms of social benefit, housing co-operatives can help promote community cohesion and integration and play a role in reducing vandalism and anti-social behaviour.The law to establish and promote a legally separate co-operative housing tenure is now feasible. Three things will need to be done in order for it to be successful. Firstly, there needs to be a change in the law to make the creation of housing co-operatives easier. Secondly, lenders need to be convinced of the security of their lending that may entail a Welsh Government underwrite. Thirdly, it needs to be publicised and people need to be enthused into creating and joining them. None of these is insurmountable with the political will to achieve it. As I’ve only got 15 minutes, can I rapidly run through what are the further developments I want to see in housing in Wales?Ten points for better Housing in Wales: first, I believe, most importantly, is the suspension of the right to buy and the building of new houses and flats by councils. The provision of social housing built and run by councils is, I believe, the most efficient and cost-effective and beneficial way of providing much needed housing. The second development I would like to see is the substantial growth of co-operative housing. We know it works across large parts of the world. We need the legislation to make sure it works in Wales as well. Third, while major progress has been made in relation to privately rented properties there is a desperate need, especially in the major conurbations, to introduce rent capping. I don’t see anyone from Cardiff here because I’m sure they would be jumping up and down in agreement on that because Cardiff suffers more than anywhere else in Wales. The very high private sector rents are one of the major causes of the escalation of the welfare bill. Instead of cutting benefits, I believe we need to limit the rents being charged.Fourth, the housing Act partially tackles this—privately rented houses should be of a reasonable standard and safe to live in. I’ve been for a long time, with other colleagues, pushing for electrical safety to be brought in to deal with this. Fifth, local authorities should build houses for sale and use the profits from the sale to support the housing revenue account. Sixth, secure tenancies should be the default renting option not these six-month tenancies. The number of people who move round a place called Plasmarl, where I was born, and they spend six months in one street and they move, at the end of that time, to live six months in the street behind it, and they just move around these terraces.Seventh, predictable rent rises in line with inflation unless there has been a substantial improvement in the building. Eighth, there needs to be a ban on letting agent fees as fees are a business cost and they ought to be paid by the business not by the people seeking housing.Ninth, ensure that privately rented properties are routinely inspected by environmental health officers to ensure that they are up to standard. Tenth, tenants should not be subjected to unreasonable rules, some of which are there to make it easier to evict them.Finally, can I just pay compliment to the Welsh Labour Government in the last term, who made substantial progress in housing legislation? A lot’s been done but there’s still a lot more to do. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I just want to use the minute that I think I have to draw the attention of the Chamber to an evaluation of co-operative housing developments in Wales, which was published at the end of March. It looked specifically at the early developmental stages in co-op housing, echoing what Mike has said, and I’ll use my time to continue to plead the cause of co-op housing. It looks also at the question of the specific impact that Welsh Government funding has had. It looked both at citizen-led and RSL-led projects. It looks at some of the downsides, struggling to acquire land for development is one of them and access to finance is another, but it notes, in general, the several substantive upsides to co-operative housing schemes, in particular the good quality of construction around design but also with regard to energy efficiency and a number of them have been developed with sustainable development principles at their heart. Many of the tenants entering into these arrangements have felt that they were likely to end up with longer-term tenancies as a result, and often the motivation for them was to avoid having to deal with bad landlords and the increased control, which many tenants felt they would have as a consequence of being part of these co-op developments, was another key motivator. So, there’s some interesting material in there, specifically in relation to Welsh co-op housing in particular.In the recommendations made in the report, the first key recommendation is a request that the Welsh Government signals its continued support for development, in particular around RSL-led schemes, which they believe will be the future growth potential in the sector, and also the importance of raising awareness of the co-op option for housing generally. One of the particular recommendations is consideration of a matching scheme between citizens who might want to participate in co-op housing schemes and RSLs able to facilitate that. So, that was just to draw attention to that report. It’s an important contribution to the co-op housing debate more broadly, and I think that co-op housing in particular can help us both tackle our housing strategy and also contribute to making our communities as robust as they can be. Thank you.

Thank you, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to reply to the debate. Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank Mike Hedges for bringing this short debate on meeting Wales’s housing need to the Chamber today. My vision for housing is quite simple: I want people to have access to a decent, affordable home that improves their lives. To achieve this, we are taking a comprehensive approach, grounded in new and innovative ways of helping the people of Wales meet their housing needs. Mike has much to offer in his 10-point plan and I’ll be asking my team to make sure that we take note of his contribution today. We are providing significant levels of investment through our grant and new loan programmes to increase housing supply and standards across all tenures. We need to retain our existing stock of affordable housing and give social landlords the confidence to invest in building new homes. The First Minister has confirmed that a Bill to end the right to buy and associated rights will be included in the first year of the legislative programme of this Government.With demand exceeding supply, our proposals will protect the social housing stock from further erosion and allow it to grow. It’s an important safety net for those who cannot acquire a home through the housing market and who depend upon social housing. There is emerging evidence that many former right-to-buy properties end up in the private rented sector, costing much more in housing benefit. This is an extra drain on public finances, when budgets are under considerable pressure.Can I pay tribute to councils already? Our councils are now able to build again, following the successful exit from the housing revenue account subsidy system. This is already having an impact in Cardiff, in Swansea and in Flintshire—my own authority—forecasting that, together, they will build over 800 new council properties.These authorities currently fund the development of new council homes out of their own resources. However, we are now developing the second phase of our housing finance grant, which is designed to be accessed by councils as well as housing associations. Preparing for this second phase is well under way. Our intention is that it will run from 2017. For this term of Government, we have committed to an ambitious target of 20,000 additional affordable homes, and social housing will have a key role to play in meeting this. To reinforce this agenda and to support those affected by the UK Government’s welfare reforms, we have made available £68 million for social housing grants in 2016-17.We are committed to greater innovation in our housing and this includes a range of new co-operative housing initiatives, led by housing associations across Wales. I listened to Jeremy’s contribution and to Mike’s and noted their passion for us to pursue more co-operative schemes across Wales. There are now 10 pioneer co-operative schemes that are in the process of delivering co-operative housing in Wales—not on the scale that the Member raised around Vancouver and other parts of the world, but we are starting on the journey and these have a potential to create more empowered communities, compared to the traditional landlord-tenant agreement.Market housing will, of course, play a vital part in meeting the diverse needs for homes and the delivery of affordable solutions. So, we’ve made encouraging progress in building more homes over the last five years. But I don’t underestimate the challenge of continuing that trend over the next five years. To provide further support to those who wish to own their own home, we’ve introduced a second phase of Help to Buy—Wales and this will invest an additional £290 million up to 2021, supporting the construction of up to 6,000 new homes and making home ownership achievable for the thousands of families who wish for that to happen. Help to Buy—Wales is providing solid foundations, but we will need to do more.We continue to focus on the need to reduce the number of empty properties. We need to build on the real achievement of bringing over 7,500 empty properties back into use during the course of the last Government, and this is in no small part thanks to the introduction of the innovative Houses into Homes loan scheme. But I am also happy to acknowledge the galvanising effect that the programme had in supporting local action in local areas. The joint working we saw on empty properties is an excellent example of the partnership working between central and local government, and that should be our ambition moving forward.Deputy Llywydd, we have had great success, and that was recognised by Mike Hedges and colleagues today in what we have delivered under the last term of government, but the challenges facing us following the Brexit campaign will provide more significant financial challenges to Government and the RSLs and sectors out there. But we must continue to find ways to encourage more housing for the people that Mike Hedges and many in this Chamber represent, in order to find affordable, safe, warm homes for those in our communities. We have, hopefully, provided some opportunity during this debate to explain what the Government intends to do, but again I recognise the great opportunities Mike Hedges has presented to us this afternoon. We will continue to consider those made during his contribution. Diolch yn fawr i chi. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

11. 11. Short Debate: We Need our Unions More than Ever—Postponed from 6 July

We now move to the short debate, which was postponed from 6 July, and I call on Bethan Jenkins to speak on the topic she has chosen, ‘We Need our Unions More than Ever’. Bethan.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thanks, and I’ve given a minute to Dawn Bowden.We owe the Wales we live in today to trade unionism. This isn’t just my view. Anyone who has read the work of Gwyn Alf Williams will know that he pinpointed one particular moment in time, the uprising in my home town of Merthyr Tydfil in 1831, as the moment when the Welsh working class moved from what he called the ‘primitive stage’ to organising itself. While trade unionism first came to Wales in 1830, when Flintshire miners joined the friendly association of coal miners, it was the flashpoint that was the Merthyr rising, with its totemic moments like the first raising of the red flag and its still-unpardoned hanging of Dic Penderyn, that were to deliver the impetus and the inspiration for an organised and active working class in industrial Wales.Most of industrial Wales is now gone. Perhaps Port Talbot in my region is one of the last outposts of what we would recognise as heavy industry and an industrial community, and long may that continue. But even though trade unions were such key players during that era—and you can also see their cultural importance and community roots in the writing of Alexander Cordell, Jack Jones, Lewis Jones and Raymond Williams—it doesn’t follow that they belong only to one time. Far from it.‘Trade unions have been an essential force for social change, without which a semblance of a decent and humane society is impossible under capitalism.’That quote comes from Pope Francis.It is also my belief that, for all the time we have capitalism and capitalism’s problems, we’re going to need trade unions. US Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis—I’m not sure if I said that right—dubbed a ‘militant crusader for social justice’ by his enemies, once said:‘Strong, responsible unions are essential to industrial fair play. Without them the labor bargain is wholly one-sided. The parties to the labor contract must be nearly equal in strength if justice is to be worked out, and this means that the workers must be organized and that their organizations must be recognized by employers as a condition precedent to industrial peace.’The story of trade unionism in the UK over the past 35 years—since I was born, in fact—is one of unprecedented and sustained attack upon their very right to exist, from Government, the media and the rest of the establishment. We know why. Were it not for the tenets of Thatcherism, would we have zero-hours contracts, institutionalised blacklisting and so-called ‘lawyers’ houses’, where professional people live eight to a property, sharing bedrooms because they cannot get on the housing ladder? And were it not for trade unions and their tradition of resisting neoliberal doctrine, surely we would have it a lot worse.We’ve seen a greater concentration of wealth in the hands of the already-wealthy, and we have our public services paying for the recklessness of our bankers. Men and women paying with their jobs and their terms and conditions—teachers, nurses, firefighters—all because of City folly. And through a similarly decades-long propaganda war fought by the right-wing press, people have been conditioned to think that there is something wasteful and unnecessary about public services; that we should decimate our emergency services, endanger the safety of our country through cuts to the police and the Border Force; reduce our children’s opportunities through education; and risk the lives of our loved ones in hospitals because of slashed budgets—all in the name of austerity.This is the environment in which trade unions now have to operate: outright hostility from those that oppose them, and, sadly, widespread indifference among those they could be helping. There hasn’t been a more bleak landscape for employees for generations. And yet, worse is to come. I don’t doubt for a minute that scrapping the working time directive will be among the Tory Government’s first post-Brexit priorities. It is this chip-chipping away at workers’ rights that trade unions were specifically designed to resist. There is bitter irony in the realisation that austerity has put trade unions and Labour-led administrations here in Wales on either side of the negotiation table. We’ve seen some pretty terrible examples, unfortunately. Neath Port Talbot council threatened to fire its entire workforce and re-employ them on worse terms and conditions. Many of those workers were part-time, single parents, trying to run single-income households.Bridgend County Borough Council took longer than almost every other Welsh local authority to implement job evaluation. I know it was a challenge, but still, by the time they got around to it, we were already deep into austerity’s winter. What that meant was those people who were due a cut soon saw their salaries reduced, while those who should have been given a rise didn’t receive it. When tackled about it, the council shrugged its shoulders and said it didn’t have the money.There has also been industrial unrest in agencies like the National Library for Wales and, particularly, National Museum Wales. Here, PCS, as has been mentioned in questions today, put up a spirited fight against plans by management to slash working hours and premium payments among its lowest paid staff, and actually pitted union against union, which is something I hope never to see again. The dispute dragged on for the best part of two years and culminated in a two-month strike that was only recently resolved. Staff blamed management and management blamed the Welsh Government for cutting its budget. For whatever reason, it was resolved, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was down to the sheer determination of the union to look after its members’ interests that carried the day. Had they not been there, it would have been a very different story, and an unhappy one at that.We wait to see what will happen in Natural Resources Wales. Here, we have two successive staff survey reports that scream unhappiness among staff at the way the organisation is run. Will it result in industrial action? That remains to be seen and I severely hope not. I have met with Unison, which represents a majority of the staff there, and, once again, they are conducting their own survey and tell me they will consult on the way forward when they have done that.The right-wing press would have us believe that unions are still stuffed with insurrectionists who cry, ‘All out, brothers!’ on the flimsiest of excuses. The truth is that most industrial disputes never get beyond a disagreement, and they are resolved by people sitting down and actually talking through the issue. In my experience—and you can choose to decide whether it is anecdotal or not—it is often hard-headed management that potentially escalate disagreements into these types of disputes.As I’ve mentioned, a lot of these disputes pit political allies against one another. As such, trade unions will often come to me or other non-Labour representatives to seek our help—and I’m obviously happy to give them such help. But, what I would say to any trade union that may be watching this or may want to respond afterwards is: please don’t feel we can’t work together because we come from a different political background. In fact, I joined Plaid partly, although not indefinitely, because—and Dawn may have something to say about this—I saw the Labour Party in my own hometown as a party that did fail to represent me. They weren’t like me; they didn’t represent me; they didn’t want to engage with people like me. I think that’s something for the Labour Party in Wales to reflect on as to how they can engage with people in their own Valleys communities.With a Welsh Government now in place for the coming five years, think back to what Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said about the balance of a bargain. Why not consider signing a memorandum of understanding with parties such as Plaid Cymru—naturally left-leaning parties that are supportive of the needs of workers and the aims of unions? I would ask any trade union listening to this debate to go away and actually consider the idea. Go away and ask yourselves what there is to gain, and what you might lose. I think you have more to gain by engaging with us.To everyone else, and particularly to those young people, some of whom I have spoken with, who were left distraught by the referendum result, now is the time for you to organise as they did in Merthyr in 1831. As well as joining, potentially, a political party, I would also urge you to join a union. As Frances O’Grady, the first woman TUC general secretary, said recently:‘All the evidence shows very clearly that if you are a member of a trade union you are likely to get better pay, more equal pay, better health and safety, more chance to get training, more chance to have conditions of work that help if you have caring responsibilities...the list goes on!’If you don’t want to leave the fate of your country in the hands of people whose views you profoundly disagree with, then remember what it is that unions have done in the past, and continue to do to this day. I’ll leave the last word to another American civil rights advocate, the lawyer Clarence Darrow:‘With all their faults, trade-unions have done more for humanity than any other organization…that ever existed. They have done more for decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the developing of character in man, than any other association’.Diolch yn fawr.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Bethan Jenkins, for letting me have my minute. Can I also thank Bethan for reminding us about the Merthyr Rising and the part that that played in the development of the trade union movement? I was very honoured to speak at the opening of the Merthyr Rising festival this year, which is the event—a now annual event—that commemorates that particular event. I’m very glad that you’re proud of being from Merthyr, Bethan, and I’m very proud of being the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. The only area I think I’d probably disagree with you on is that it was actually my involvement in the trade union movement that brought me into the Labour Party, because I felt that the Labour Party stood for the values that I followed in the trade union.So, those of you who are familiar with my background will obviously be aware of why I’m supporting this particular motion. I’m particularly pleased to have the opportunity to speak as one thing that’s clear that I’ve learnt during my time—or I did learn during my time—as a full-time officer with Unison is how fortunate we actually are to live in Wales and to have such a constructive relationship between the Welsh Government and the trade unions, one that I know is the envy of my colleagues who work on the other side of Offa’s Dyke. In referring to Offa’s Dyke, it’s probably an opportune time to talk about the partnership working between the trade unions and the Welsh Government in NHS Wales, which, in 2014, saw the contrast between a pay dispute and industrial action in England, and a negotiated pay settlement delivering the real living wage to all NHS employees in Wales. I raise that point because I think it’s appropriate to say that good government, as well as good employers, can deliver good industrial relations. Of course, we also have the workforce partnership council here in Wales, dealing with workforce issues in our devolved public services, a body that led to the creation of the staff commission, which will play a significant role in the future reform of local government and public services.But the partnership working ethos can also extend beyond public services. Last week, some of you may have attended the Glas Cymru celebrations of 15 years of ownership of Dŵr Cymru as a not-for-profit company. Glas Cymru’s chief executive, Chris Jones, told the assembled guests that the significant efficiency challenges set for the company by Ofwat could never have been so constructively achieved without the full engagement of the trade unions under their ‘working together’ agreement. So, with the challenges that face us post Brexit, it is absolutely the case that trade unions have more relevance than ever across the UK and, as a Welsh Assembly, we should be doing everything in our power to foster and support trade unions here in Wales.

Thank you. I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate—Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. It’s a pleasure to take part in this short debate and it’s a great thing, I think, that the last words we will speak on the floor of the Assembly before we go away on our summer break in this first year of the fifth Assembly will be about trade unionism and its importance here in Wales. I’m not going to compete with either Bethan or the Member for Merthyr in looking at the history of trade unionism, but I don’t think we understand the title of this short debate, that our need for trade unions is now greater than ever, unless we look at some of the things that have brought us to where we are. The very first meeting of the TUC, the Trades Union Congress, happened in 1868. On its agenda: wage inequalities, workers’ hours, technical education and threats to jobs and workers’ rights. So, it’s a long haul from 1868 to today, but the agendas in many ways stay remarkably the same, and the challenges for trade unionism throughout that period. I’ve no doubt, at all those points, people have said to themselves, and rightly, that they needed trade unions more than ever. Who today remembers Mabon’s Monday, when trade unionists in the mining industry refused to go to work on the first Monday of the month for six long years in order to limit production and so protect wages? We certainly remember the Taff Vale judgment of 1901, with its attacks on the right to strike, and the Osborne judgment of 1909, which ruled it unlawful for trade unions to contribute to political funds. The history of trade unionism and the history of Wales are absolutely intrinsically linked, aren’t they? Both of those judgments were overturned by concerted trade union action. Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, the first general election that I took part in, in Cardiff, was in 1983. I was remarkably young and I was put in charge of postal votes. [Interruption.] I wasn’t quite that young. But here I was, I had not long come to Cardiff, and I was put in charge of postal votes for the Cardiff West constituency, no doubt because it was thought of as something so harmless that I was unlikely to make a complete mess of it. In those days, as some of us here will remember, getting a postal vote was much, much harder than it is today. You had to go to a very particular person to have the postal vote application signed, and, in Cardiff West Labour Party, there was only one person that I was allowed to go to, and his name was Stan Czekaj, and he was in his 80s, and I was in my 20s, and Stan’s great claim to fame was that he had ridden the motorbike from south Wales to London in the general strike of 1926, taking messages from the committee here to the Trades Union Congress committee there. In some ways, you know, did they not need trade unions more than ever in 1926? That thread of our history really is unbroken. In south Wales, in 1926, the general strike was largely led by A.J. Cook—‘an agitator of the worst type’, said the deputy chief constable of Glamorgan, writing to the Home Office at the time—whose blue plaque at the Rhondda Heritage Park I know the leader of the opposition spoke at when it was unveiled only a few weeks ago. We also have a long tradition of turning our agitators into our heroes many years later down the line. So, there was A.J. Cook, of whom Arthur Horner, another great south Wales miners’ leader said, thinking of how he managed to rouse public meetings during that 1926 campaign—Arthur Horner would say how he would turn up and speak first, and he would make a lengthy and earnest speech that people would listen to calmly enough, and then A.J. Cook would follow him and make this fantastic rousing speech that would leave everybody on fire at the end of it. And Horner said, looking back, he realised that the difference between the two of them was that he, Arthur Horner, was speaking to the meeting, whereas Arthur Cook was always speaking for the meeting, and, by capturing people’s views at the time, he was able to reflect those back to them in a way that inspired them to take the action that they did. So, that’s Arthur Cook, who led the first hunger strike march from south Wales to London in the 1920s, where they were met by that great black artist of the twentieth century, Paul Robeson, who was playing Othello in the west end, and who came out to meet the south Wales miners as they walked into London—the start of his decades-long association with south Wales, speaking in 1938 to 7,000 people at Mountain Ash as he unveiled the memorial to the 33 men from south Wales who died in the international brigades in the Spanish civil war. And, on Saturday this week, we will mark the eightieth anniversary of those people’s contribution when we meet at the international brigades’ memorial in Cathays Park, here in Cardiff. They needed trade unions, didn’t they? And they needed them, I’m sure, in the words of this motion, they would think, more than ever before.Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, there is a long history, and we don’t have time to go through it all. We wouldn’t want to leave it without mentioning the miners’ strike, that formative experience for many people who are in this Chamber. The trade union that I belonged to at the time, as did the leader of the opposition, the National Association of Probation Officers, had somehow wangled ourselves to be official observers, whatever that might mean, at the strike. So, I would get up at 4.30 in the morning and go with others to watch the struggle outside pits in south Wales as hundreds and hundreds of police officers were needed to allow lorries to make their way in and out of south Wales collieries. And those formative moments—I think, quite certainly, as we stood there, we knew that trade unions were needed more than ever. It was the start of that story, that sad story that Bethan outlined when she pointed to the history of trade unionism—the attacks on it that have happened over those 30 years. So, why do we need them more than ever today? Well, here are three reasons, I think: first of all, the objective position of working people in the United Kingdom today is different even than it was in some of those earlier struggles. UK workers are suffering the longest and most severe decline in real earnings since records began in Victorian times. The share that labour takes of our national income is at a 50-year low, whereas the share taken by capital is at a 50-year high. And the effect of that is absolutely real. Here is Andrew Haldane, the chief economist of the Bank of England, speaking at the TUC annual conference last year, where he said that:‘Had US real wages tracked productivity since 1970, the median worker today would be 40% better off. Had UK wages tracked productivity since 1990, the median worker today would be 20% better off. Unlike earlier phases of rapid technological change, labour has not shared equally in the fruits of recent great leaps forward’.Part of the reason why labour has not shared in the fruits of that technological advance is because trade unions have been weaker and have been less able to represent their members here, in the United States, and across other parts of Europe at all. In an absolutely objective sense, trade unions are needed more than ever.They’re needed more than ever—and my second reason, Dirprwy Lywydd—because of the direct attacks that still go on on trade unions at the UK level. Here in Wales, we are committed to the repeal of the Trade Union Act 2016, and I look forward very much to being the Minister who will bring that repeal legislation in front of this Assembly during this Assembly term, because weakening trade unions is not simply an act of vandalism in itself, but it actually undermines the ability of the social partnership to deliver the things that are good for us all.My third reason is the result of the referendum on 23 June, because, very sadly, those people—and we’ve had a very useful discussion today of why people made the choices that they did—who rejected the European Union and who have needed its protections the most will find, I think, that the choice is not between a Europe that they disliked and a better future, but an Americanisation, an Atlanticist agenda, in which TTIP will be something that those people who persuaded people to vote in the way they did will embrace as fast as they are able to do it. In the aftermath of the leaving of the social protections afforded by the European Union, trade unions are needed more than ever. So, tomorrow I will attend the workforce partnership council here in Cardiff, as here in Wales we try—and it’s not easy and you don’t always agree and I’m quite certain that local authorities run by parties of many different political persuasions have had their moments with their trade union colleagues and the people who work for them—but we try to do the hard yards of sitting around the table together—the Government, the trade unions, the employers—in that social partnership model that we know provides our best chance of weathering the storm that we face, and where trade unions go on providing an absolutely essential service for their members in a time when they are indeed needed more than ever. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. That brings our proceedings to a close. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 19:16.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Bethan Sayed: Will the Minister make a statement on widening access to sports facilities?

Vaughan Gething: The Welsh Government believes that modern, appropriate and accessible sports facilities are key in encouraging more people to take part in sport. Sport Wales, our delivery agent, is working with partners to ensure that there are good quality facilities spread across Wales.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on coeliac disease prescriptions?

Vaughan Gething: Gluten-free products are an essential part of the clinical treatment of coeliac disease.  National prescribing guidance was published in 2013 to support healthcare professionals in the management of patients with coeliac disease.   Coeliac UK has supported the development of the guidance including the updated version published in March 2016.

Angela Burns: Will the Minister provide an update on his priorities for legislation during the fifth Assembly?

Vaughan Gething: Last month, the First Minister made a statement setting out the Welsh Government’s legislative programme for 2016/17. For health wellbeing and sport, the key legislation is the reintroduction of a Public Health Bill, although clearly there is a close interest in the Additional Learning Needs Bill.  There will also be a secondary legislation programme stemming from the recently passed Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 and other secondary legislation of a routine nature.

Julie Morgan: What opportunity has the Minister had to meet with members of Haemophilia Wales?

Vaughan Gething: I met representatives on 6 July to hear their views about future support for those affected by NHS supplied contaminated blood.  I clarified current scheme funding arrangements and reaffirmed that a decision about the way forward for Wales would be made when the outcome of the England consultation is known.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Mike Hedges: Will the Minister make a statement on transport links within the Swansea Bay City Region?

Ken Skates: The National Transport Finance Plan sets out the measures we are taking to ensure that  the Swansea bay region is connected via reliable modern and  integrated transport network to other key agglomerations across Wales and beyond.

Dai Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the future of heavy industry in South Wales West?

Ken Skates: We continue to recognise the importance of heavy industries to the economy of the whole of Wales and our priority remains to develop and strengthen its future.

Eluned Morgan: Will the Minister set out how the City Region approach is going to benefit areas in rural Mid and West Wales?

Ken Skates: Inclusiveness is at the heart of our approach to City Regions.  Their purpose is not just to ensure that our major cities become drivers of growth and opportunity, but that we also deliver the alignment, collaboration and joined-up thinking that allows growth and opportunity to be spread across Wales.

Neil McEvoy: How does the Minister assess the effectiveness of Welsh Government business support?

Ken Skates: Our actions supported over 40,000 jobs last year and nearly 150,000 jobs in the last Assembly term. Our increasing employment rate is outperforming all other parts of the UK and we have seen major employers like Aston Martin and TVR announce the creation of high quality jobs in Wales.

Questions to the Minister for Social Services and Public Health

Jayne Bryant: What plans does the Minister have to support initiatives to increase women and girls' participation in sport?

Rebecca Evans: As our agent Sport Wales continues to focus investment on increasing participation in all parts of Wales with a particular emphasis on women and girls.  We are seeing increased participation in a number of sports but there is more to do in order to narrow the gender gap.

Eluned Morgan: Will the Minister outline what plans are being put in place to prepare for a rapidly ageing population?

Rebecca Evans: Welsh Government led the way in planning for an ageing population, with our first Strategy for Older People in 2003.  The Intermediate Care fund has provided £110 million to improve care and support for older people.  We have invested another £30m improving services for older people and mental health services.

Questions to the Minister for Skills and Science

Hannah Blythyn: Will the Minister provide an update on the roll-out of broadband in north east Wales?

Julie James: Superfast Cymru has provided access to superfast fibre broadband to 143,316 premises across north east Wales.